Poll
Question:
Should Scott include the Queen Alien as part of the Xenomorph lifecycle in his next film?
Option 1: Yes
Option 2: No
What do you guys think? Should the Queen Alien make a return to Scott's next Alien movie?
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Quote from: Chronicle on Jun 21, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
What do you guys think? Should the Queen Alien make a return to Scott's next Alien movie?
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No for me. It works in the context of Cameron's film but I don't think it fits into the prequels universe. While I dont hate it I'm not a huge fan of the queen idea as a whole because it turns the Alien into a drone like creatures and I'm hoping the next film will feature a bio-mechanical monster in line with the original.
I look upon the queen as some kind of evolution of the species further down the line.
Yeah I see the queen as a mutation that fit the situation.
No. I prefer the body horror of egg-morphing instead.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Jun 21, 2017, 12:32:33 PM
No. I prefer the body horror of egg-morphing instead.
^ Yeah this too
No. It would make the Xenomorphs as drones and they would be less "alien" IMO. Eggmorphing concept would be better. I hope that in the next prequel, we would see the 2000 colonists being eggmorphed.
The Queen doesn't fit in with any of Scott's ideas of creation and transformation as much as eggmorphing does. If anything has been done to death in the series it's the Queen.
Cooked, with an apple in its mouth.
-Windebieste.
Even though I didn't love the idea of it, I was hoping Shaw would have been morphed into a Xeno-queen. It would have been over the top, but at least it would have pushed the envelope a bit.
Then again - what we saw of Shaw was her body split open (following the birth of a creature that had been partially developed in an egg) and very Xeno-esque structures emerging from her head, so maybe that's where this is going after all. Plenty of colonists for David to experiment on.
Don't mind either way on this one really, I don't think she's essential but it would add some excitement.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:48:04 AM
Quote from: Chronicle on Jun 21, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
What do you guys think? Should the Queen Alien make a return to Scott's next Alien movie?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F1360170064432479.jpg&hash=bddfa6abba32d7a3e8c8efbbb44855a64d2d4c52)
No for me. It works in the context of Cameron's film but I don't think it fits into the prequels universe. While I dont hate it I'm not a huge fan of the queen idea as a whole because it turns the Alien into a drone like creatures and I'm hoping the next film will feature a bio-mechanical monster in line with the original.
I look upon the queen as some kind of evolution of the species further down the line.
That's exactly what I think too. I love Aliens but I always prefered the first one's idea, a vicious creature, almost pervert and consciously sadistic in some way over the "insect" alien who serve the queen, I think it's so much more disturbing...
Prequel universe? Last time i check All 4 Alien Movies still Canon.
Quote from: gantarat on Jun 21, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
Prequel universe? Last time i check All 4 Alien Movies still Canon.
I never suggested they were not.
No reason why both egg morphing and the Alien Queen can't exist. A "drone" should have the ability, in a situation where there is no Queen, to egg morph someone in order to propagate the species...
It would be nice to see one, but all I care is that they don't contradict queens and render the prequels and sequels as not being canon with each other.
Don't try to chain the xeno down with your rules. ;)
Quote from: necrotard on Jun 21, 2017, 03:25:30 PM
It would be nice to see one, but all I care is that they don't contradict queens and render the prequels and sequels as not being canon with each other.
I don't think Scott would. Scott has mentioned on numerous occasions how he thought Cameron did a good job with Aliens and really respects the film. You can even see some of Cameron's attributes in Covenant. I think it would actually be kind of cool to see the alien Queen in Scott's next film. It would be one of those elements to tie the whole series together.
I'm not saying Ridley MUST put in the Queen in the film, I"m just saying it would be cool and help connect some plot points.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Jun 21, 2017, 12:32:33 PM
No. I prefer the body horror of egg-morphing instead.
I agree completely.
Quote from: Elmazalman on Jun 21, 2017, 12:32:33 PM
No. I prefer the body horror of egg-morphing instead.
^
I would be happy to see Ridleys take on the queen.
To be honest, so would I, but would they break out the practical model, again, I wonder?
Well by putting the wasps into the equation they potentially set the queen mechanic up
I'm fine either way
The Queen was always my favorite Alien. Not for the prequels, no. But in a future non-RS-related sequel? HELL YEAH.
"LET'S ROOOOOOOOOCK!" -Smartgun fire-
Unnecessary. So no.
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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I agree with keeping the Queen out of the prequel films. But retconning her entirely? No.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Quote from: windebieste on Jun 21, 2017, 01:00:00 PM
The Queen doesn't fit in with any of Scott's ideas of creation and transformation as much as eggmorphing does. If anything has been done to death in the series it's the Queen.
Cooked, with an apple in its mouth.
-Windebieste.
;D We're those words, or something to that effect, uttered by Sir Riddles once...? Who knows, maybe we'll get a Deacon Queen...
I didn't realize there was a pro-egg-morphing cult out there. Interesting.
This Tweet had me a tad concerned he'd go against the queen concept:
https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800 (https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800)
(But someone correct me if this isn't his official Twitter account. I have no idea.)
The only time we've actually seen a adult queen in the main series is at the end of aliens and for a few moments in AR. Hardly overdone.
The queen in avp was more like a dinosaur imo.
Quote from: necrotard on Jun 22, 2017, 12:11:35 AM
I didn't realize there was a pro-egg-morphing cult out there. Interesting.
This Tweet had me a tad concerned he'd go against the queen concept:
https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800 (https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800)
(But someone correct me if this isn't his official Twitter account. I have no idea.)
Its not official
Quote from: necrotard on Jun 22, 2017, 12:11:35 AM
I didn't realize there was a pro-egg-morphing cult out there. Interesting.
This Tweet had me a tad concerned he'd go against the queen concept:
https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800 (https://twitter.com/Sir_RidleyScott/status/761705942908108800)
(But someone correct me if this isn't his official Twitter account. I have no idea.)
I don't think Scott does email or anything like this, especially twitter.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 22, 2017, 12:13:46 AM
The only time we've actually seen a adult queen in the main series is at the end of aliens and for a few moments in AR. Hardly overdone.
The queen in avp was more like a dinosaur imo.
Oh goodness the Queen in AVP was utter piss. Nothing that sat on an eggsack depositing eggs for centuries would move like that! In Aliens she exhibited more of an insect/arachnid vibe than a tyrannasoaurs rex lmao.
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Issue number ?
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 22, 2017, 12:20:36 AM
Oh goodness the Queen in AVP was utter piss. Nothing that sat on an eggsack depositing eggs for centuries would move like that! In Aliens she exhibited more of an insect/arachnid vibe than a tyrannasoaurs rex lmao.
Arachnid, black widow spider is what they were going for, hence the spider-legs looking "construction" that held the queen
As for the topic at hand, no. I dont want the Queen in the prequels. Love her, love the design, terrifying concept (being immobilized knowing this huge thing will impregnate you with living larvas like a spider), but it wouldnt fit the feel and concept of the prequels
Prequels are more about mutations, not natural biological cycles/animals
Give me Egg Morphing any day... But I think Cameron's Hive type of Aliens should at least be acknowledge in a future film of Ridley's. It don't have to be forced up on us, however a little nod to the queen would be nice if it's something simple as dialogue or an abandoned experiment of Davids. Infact I would love to see David's final "f**k you" moment to the Engineers race, at the end of Ridley Scotts prequels as a nod to Cameron's Queen being a creation of Davids. I would rather see David as the creator of the Hive insect type of Aliens then the classic Xenomorph from Alien.
I think the Queen should remain canon but not be in the prequels. At this point I just want to see all new stuff. David's strain can give us so many new possibilities
I would say yes if the Queen only appeared in Aliens, but she or a variation of her has appeared in all the sequels (and AVP). And she really got her due in 2004's Alien Vs Predator. Save her for the inevitable remake of Aliens.
Quote from: gantarat on Jun 22, 2017, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Issue number ?
Yeah I don't recall that in Defiance.
Quote from: Lonely Universe on Jun 22, 2017, 02:43:32 AM
I think the Queen should remain canon but not be in the prequels. At this point I just want to see all new stuff. David's strain can give us so many new possibilities
Absolutely. Aliens isn't going anywhere as far as continuity is concerned, if to do nothing else than generate profits through video sales (there's a reason that they always release a "Legacy" set or whatever they call it). But the variations of the Xeno that we have yet to see is what is so fascinating about the prequels.
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
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Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Thank you. Didn't know about that. Need to check it out. How much information about the process is in this comic?
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Quote from: SM on Jun 22, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
Quote from: gantarat on Jun 22, 2017, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
Gesendet von meinem SM-G530FZ mit Tapatalk
Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Issue number ?
Yeah I don't recall that in Defiance.
It was confirmed by the artist Tristan Jones, that these scenes show egg morphing.
He also stated that it was what the Praetorian Alien was doing, egg morphing victims as a Queen was not present.
(images found on the net)
No, it shouldn't and don't try to obsessively tie everything in.
Although this is not a definite no, I'm fairly certain it would be more fitting to use implement egg-morphing.
I think people are forgetting that Scott already had a queen of sorts: Shaw.
he just didn't beat it over our heads quite like Cameron did.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 22, 2017, 03:12:29 PM
I think people are forgetting that Scott already had a queen of sorts: Shaw.
he just didn't beat it over our heads quite like Cameron did.
Right. The way that scene played out - the Xeno being born transitioning right to the silent moment of Walter observing Shaw's mutilated (and mutated) body - tells me David used her to make those eggs.
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 22, 2017, 04:18:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 22, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
Quote from: gantarat on Jun 22, 2017, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
Gesendet von meinem SM-G530FZ mit Tapatalk
Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Issue number ?
Yeah I don't recall that in Defiance.
It was confirmed by the artist Tristan Jones, that these scenes show egg morphing.
He also stated that it was what the Praetorian Alien was doing, egg morphing victims as a Queen was not present.
But... In the very next issue we get taken to the origin of the derelict ship, a Seegson owned place orbiting Lv-44-40 and we see a Praetorian/Young Queen. While it may be a jump to assume she laid the eggs, she could have, and we know drones like moving eggs from egg positions in the movies and EU far from the Queen when a Queen is indeed present. Infact, no visual in-comic evidence is given for the existence of Eggmorphing and the Queen Alien is a major plotpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I love how horrifying Eggmorphing is and think it can work alongside a Queen easily, but the comic isn't an empirical example of Eggmorphing.
Should the Queen be in the prequels? I don't know, but I do think a Queen should at least be mentioned. Even just in a theoretical ramble by David or another individual about the potential of the "Perfect Organism" if it wasn't constantly killed in its' first few hours of existence.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 22, 2017, 04:40:45 PM
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 22, 2017, 04:18:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 22, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
Quote from: gantarat on Jun 22, 2017, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 21, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jun 21, 2017, 09:12:04 PM
We have seen so much of the queen and almost nothing about egg morphing in the movies, books and comics. Time to change this, as egg morphing is far more interesting and creepy!
Gesendet von meinem SM-G530FZ mit Tapatalk
Actually, egg morphing was shown in the Alien: Defiance comic.
Issue number ?
Yeah I don't recall that in Defiance.
It was confirmed by the artist Tristan Jones, that these scenes show egg morphing.
He also stated that it was what the Praetorian Alien was doing, egg morphing victims as a Queen was not present.
But... In the very next issue we get taken to the origin of the derelict ship, a Seegson owned place orbiting Lv-44-40 and we see a Praetorian/Young Queen. While it may be a jump to assume she laid the eggs, she could have, and we know drones like moving eggs from egg positions in the movies and EU far from the Queen when a Queen is indeed present. Infact, no visual in-comic evidence is given for the existence of Eggmorphing and the Queen Alien is a major plotpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I love how horrifying Eggmorphing is and think it can work alongside a Queen easily, but the comic isn't an empirical example of Eggmorphing.
Ummm..,yes it is.
As I stated, the artist himself confirmed that the scene that he drew depicts egg morphing.
And you can plainly see it in the panels of the comic.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 21, 2017, 06:49:22 PM
Well by putting the wasps into the equation they potentially set the queen mechanic up
I'm fine either way
Yeah, I was always wandering about the wasp in Covenant and the meaning behind it. I have a feeling Scott wouldn't be afraid to throw in the Queen. Being the way he is lately with the Alien it wouldn't surprise me in the least. And hell why not?
I like the egg-morphing too as I find it truly terrifying but also to add a little spectacle the Queen would be perfect.
Quote from: Sabres21768 on Jun 22, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 22, 2017, 04:40:45 PM
But... In the very next issue we get taken to the origin of the derelict ship, a Seegson owned place orbiting Lv-44-40 and we see a Praetorian/Young Queen. While it may be a jump to assume she laid the eggs, she could have, and we know drones like moving eggs from egg positions in the movies and EU far from the Queen when a Queen is indeed present. Infact, no visual in-comic evidence is given for the existence of Eggmorphing and the Queen Alien is a major plotpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I love how horrifying Eggmorphing is and think it can work alongside a Queen easily, but the comic isn't an empirical example of Eggmorphing.
Ummm..,yes it is.
As I stated, the artist himself confirmed that the scene that he drew depicts egg morphing.
And you can plainly see it in the panels of the comic.
I never denied the artist said that, though I'd like a citation there, but it really doesn't plainly show it in the comic. Coccooning? Sure. Lots of eggs? Sure. By plainly see I'm guessing you're reffering to the panel labeled "3.012.07"? If the cut scene of the Eggmorphing in Alien wasn't cut then I'd 90% agree. It isn't "plainly seen" but the similarities are there. But without in-comic exposition or further depiction, all it is is coccooning.
It egg morphing. Tristan said on these bored, when asked, that he slipped egg morphing in the first issue.
Quote from: Russ840 on Jun 22, 2017, 05:28:46 PM
It egg morphing. Tristan said on these bored, when asked, that he slipped egg morphing in the first issue.
Link? Anyhow, Word of God /= Canon. Neither are Easter Eggs. I'm not denying that was the artist's intention, but it is never stated or unambiguously depicted in-comic based on lore we already have at our fingertips and thus it cannot be stated as an empirical example of Eggmorphing. That's just objective fact. As an example of your personal head-canon Eggmorphing, sure, of course. :)
Actually. I have a personal message on here with Tristan telling me he is bringing the egg morphing back.
Quote from: Russ840 on Jun 22, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
Actually. I have a personal message on here with Tristan telling me he is bringing the egg morphing back.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 22, 2017, 05:33:57 PM
Link? Anyhow, Word of God /= Canon. Neither are Easter Eggs. I'm not denying that was the artist's intention, but it is never stated or unambiguously depicted in-comic based on lore we already have at our fingertips and thus it cannot be stated as an empirical example of Eggmorphing. That's just objective fact. As an example of your personal head-canon Eggmorphing, sure, of course. :)
Now peace out. I'm not allowed to be logical on a forum. :P
I'm not going through 84 pages of posts to find when Tristan says that the eggmorphing is there. It's in here http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=53371.0
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. If it's on he page then that's good enough for me.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 22, 2017, 05:38:55 PM
Quote from: Russ840 on Jun 22, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
Actually. I have a personal message on here with Tristan telling me he is bringing the egg morphing back.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 22, 2017, 05:33:57 PM
Link? Anyhow, Word of God /= Canon. Neither are Easter Eggs. I'm not denying that was the artist's intention, but it is never stated or unambiguously depicted in-comic based on lore we already have at our fingertips and thus it cannot be stated as an empirical example of Eggmorphing. That's just objective fact. As an example of your personal head-canon Eggmorphing, sure, of course. :)
Now peace out. I'm not allowed to be logical on a forum. :P
You can be what you like. Your not being rude so there is no problem. I'm just not in agreement with you.
Quote from: Kimo on Jun 22, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
Give me Egg Morphing any day... But I think Cameron's Hive type of Aliens should at least be acknowledge in a future film of Ridley's. It don't have to be forced up on us, however a little nod to the queen would be nice if it's something simple as dialogue or an abandoned experiment of Davids. Infact I would love to see David's final "f**k you" moment to the Engineers race, at the end of Ridley Scotts prequels as a nod to Cameron's Queen being a creation of Davids. I would rather see David as the creator of the Hive insect type of Aliens then the classic Xenomorph from Alien.
Why? And to the bold, he's already been shown to have created a strain in Covenant that is closely related to Kane's Son, with only slight variations of the strain. It would be much more terrifying if the Queen was naturally connected to the Accelerant without any human involvement.
The Queen is Camerons making........do you guys , in your wildest dreams, imagine Ridley using his idea ??...............look what he came up with in creating the eggs in AC to avoid the queen.........next question?
Quote from: palerider on Jun 23, 2017, 06:25:53 AM
The Queen is Camerons making........do you guys , in your wildest dreams, imagine Ridley using his idea ??...............look what he came up with in creating the eggs in AC to avoid the queen.........next question?
I agree, he could've introduce the Queen before if he wanted to.
I think Ridley will include the Queen.
He has shown the Alien/Xenomorph has various ways to 'excist' - from spores, to trilobites, to mutation, and to eggs.
He already laid out the base to go there, as he made david 'create' the xenomorph from altering the neomorph alien's dna to infusing it with insect/bug DNA.
The Queen IS much more bug-like and the Xeno's been shown to have a 'hive' in Aliens (Cameron).
It's interesting to see how David introduced the egg-cycle of the alien, probably through mutilating and really abusing Shaw. poor girl.
He might start introducing eggmorphing, this time.
So why not ALSO include 'queenifying' the alien for reproduction without the direct neccesity of a (certain amount of) host(s).
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 21, 2017, 06:49:22 PM
Well by putting the wasps into the equation they potentially set the queen mechanic up
I'm fine either way
I'm with Omega on this. I like the Queen and I also like eggmorphing. I'm inclined to want to see more eggmorphing since it only appeared once in the Director's Cut but I'm good either way.
I do feel like Scott doesn't really want to do it, though. He seems much more interested in doing his own thing with the accelerant and the mutation stuff.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 26, 2017, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 21, 2017, 06:49:22 PM
Well by putting the wasps into the equation they potentially set the queen mechanic up
I'm fine either way
I'm with Omega on this. I like the Queen and I also like eggmorphing. I'm inclined to want to see more eggmorphing since it only appeared once in the Director's Cut but I'm good either way.
I do feel like Scott doesn't really want to do it, though. He seems much more interested in doing his own thing with the accelerant and the mutation stuff.
But the Queen was such a cinematic spectacle. Why wouldn't Scott want to involve it into his prequel series to help tie things together??
Because he seems more interested in doing his own thing.
Face it, some (or most) of those colonists aboard the Covenant are gonna end up as eggs. And that doesn't include a queen.
Also now that I think about it, the eggmorphing scene was removed because of pacing reasons (and because some of the individuals involved, including Giger, didn't like the look of the set). Honestly it seems to me that Scott never had any problem with the actual concept, so it would make sense to me that he wouldn't have any issues with making it a part of the official canon.
He did add it back into the 2003 cut of the movie. He wouldn't have done so if he felt there was no merit in the scene.
It's a safe bet that's what he has planned for the colonists aboard the Covenant. The Queen is simply outside of Scott's vision.
-Windebieste.
A lot of folks over at SciFied seem to think Scott is tying the prequels into Blade Runner 2049. Not sure how I feel about yet another crossover. :-\
There has always been that winky link but I doubt they'd do anything concrete with it. Different studios and it wouldn't amount to much anyway.
It really wouldn't, but Scott seems to have a lot of sway over the direction of these franchises as of late (with the exception of Ford who chose the director of BR2049, but while I wouldn't think Ford would stop Scott with regard to Alien, we can always hope).
Scott's prequels make no bones about it; the queen is redundant. Plausible, but superfluous. Kind of like egg-morphing. It all fits.
The Queen makes sense, especially with how the evolution was shown in the movie. It makes sense that David after studying wasps and other similar creatures would create the Queen to lay eggs en masse and fast. Egg-morphing is just stupid body horror for body horror's sake and makes no logical sense. and I like exploring the evolution of the xeno's and other types of them. Besides the Queen is a f**king majestic beast! at lot of people herecome off as really small minded.
Quote from: Chronicle on Jun 28, 2017, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 26, 2017, 09:51:54 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 21, 2017, 06:49:22 PM
Well by putting the wasps into the equation they potentially set the queen mechanic up
I'm fine either way
I'm with Omega on this. I like the Queen and I also like eggmorphing. I'm inclined to want to see more eggmorphing since it only appeared once in the Director's Cut but I'm good either way.
I do feel like Scott doesn't really want to do it, though. He seems much more interested in doing his own thing with the accelerant and the mutation stuff.
But the Queen was such a cinematic spectacle. Why wouldn't Scott want to involve it into his prequel series to help tie things together??
Imo it comes down to this. Will Scott direct the next Alien movie?
If Scott is in control, there would be no Queen for reasons mentioned in this thread.
But Scott may not be the director.
My guess/theory is that Fox will delay production of the new Alien movie due to the underperforming box office of "Covenant".
Scott will be 80 in November. And he wants to film the "Battle of Britain" which would keep him busy.
Even the amazing Ridley Scott, who will direct movies in his 80s, is going to retire someday.
Going along with my speculation where there are new filmmakers and a new script; This could bring in new plot elements such as; space marines, the Queen, the Space Jockey and at the same time resolve the David story, in one movie.
Fox will eventually figure this out. I'm certain in a few years the studio will want to make at least one more Alien prequel.
;)
Why do people keep saying the movie is underperforming? its made $227,855,045 on a $79 Million budget! Also, I dont think Ridley is going anywhere unless he wants to. and if Fox didnt want another I could see him and Brandywine aquiring the rights and taking them to another studio.
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but underperforming is a fair assessment.
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And
Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere
fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 28, 2017, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Well, that's not a very fair comparison, is it? :D Aliens is like 31 years old, things work differently now. It's much more expensive to make a film nowadays.
Indeed.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 28, 2017, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Yikes. Yikes.
For me nope. Well a queen maybe works, but in the more action oriented Aliens-esque movie. For the prequels Ridley should stick to the original Giger's Alien for a while now. A queen idea made the Alien that we fear as cannon fodder again and the queen as the final boss.
I think that Ridley should reintroduce the eggmorphing idea again(it was more creepy than the queen laying eggs) because Ridley's Alien was different than Cameron's Aliens.
I do not think the queen will work......one, because Ridley chose the path of egg morfing, and its also Camerons baby.........secondly, it lost its posture, remember the first time you saw it in Aliens?.......Ripley turns around slowly and takes a look at her ,we were all mesmerised by her majestical looks.
Then came along AVP....we saw her again batteling the predator............. Seeing her again, I do not think will have the same effect on the audiance as it did with Aliens..........So my guess we will never see her again.
Quote from: Evanus on Jun 28, 2017, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 28, 2017, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Well, that's not a very fair comparison, is it? :D Aliens is like 31 years old, things work differently now. It's much more expensive to make a film nowadays.
Not really. Most of it is advertising, A-list actors and CG. Covenant is clearly CG-heavy. So, yeah you could be right in the essence that it is much more expensive to make a film that general audiences are expecting (heavy CG and A-list actors like Guy Pierce, Michael Fassbender x2, etc)...
The advertising isn't part of the production budget.
And there's a range of factor why it's not accurate comparison.
Quote from: SM on Jun 29, 2017, 11:52:53 PM
And there's a range of factor why it's not accurate comparison.
You know, in your many responses to me around the forum I've not seen you once back up any of your claims which seem to just be the sake of following me around the forum and criticizing me. It's kind of childish and YOU are the primary reason I don't come here much because of your trollish sarcastic and all around dickheaded behavior that I've already seen you get chewed out for on a few occasions both here and on SciFied, so that being said you exhibit this cynical condescending behavior with virtually everyone I see you interact with save a few of the older members that primarily seems to be directed at people you personally do not like. So, with that being said, I am putting you on ignore. Do not try to interact with me on this forum or that forum ever again. f**k. OFF.
Then you haven't been paying attention.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 29, 2017, 11:58:21 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 29, 2017, 11:52:53 PM
And there's a range of factor why it's not accurate comparison.
You know, in your many responses to me around the forum I've not seen you once back up any of your claims which seem to just be the sake of following me around the forum and criticizing me. It's kind of childish and YOU are the primary reason I don't come here much because of your trollish sarcastic and all around dickheaded behavior that I've already seen you get chewed out for on a few occasions both here and on SciFied, so that being said you exhibit this cynical condescending behavior with virtually everyone I see you interact with save a few of the older members that primarily seems to be directed at people you personally do not like. So, with that being said, I am putting you on ignore. Do not try to interact with me on this forum or that forum ever again. f**k. OFF.
For posterity.
:laugh:
That was an unexpected edit.
I don't remember coming across him at Scified. But then I packed it in over there a couple of months back, and they still created a hate thread for me. ;D
It always seems to be the ones that make bold claims, but run a mile when you ask for more information, and actually engage in a discussion.
A hate THREAD? That's when you know you occupy real estate in their minds.
Yes, and it's so funny. They yelp "well I ain't gotta prove anything!" at an innocuous proof request, every time. But apparently the other person always has to prove unicorns don't exist.
I like puppies... ;D
:laugh:
Quote from: SM on Jun 30, 2017, 12:09:21 AM
I don't remember coming across him at Scified. But then I packed it in over there a couple of months back, and they still created a hate thread for me. ;D
Shiiiettttt :D :D :D :D
That's like a badge of honor. :laugh:
If you feelin like a pimp go and brush your shoulders off...
:D
I should point out "they" wasn't everyone. There's a few cool people over there.
Moving on.
No.
SM takes his body count up another stripe. Legend.
I can't remember if I posted this or not but I think the queen makes sense in this new storyline we are in. To me it actually makes much more sense than the supposed egg morphing. The facehuggers David snuck on could be carrying a queen or you could probably have both and let a single Alien make a queen.
The more I think about it, the better the next movie would be with a Queen. It would at least stop more strange things from happening, like David making a king Alien out of Walters left nut.
The more I think about it, eggmorphing is the more likely outcome.
These movies have not only been about creation, but also about transformation. It makes more sense for David to have finally harnessed the properties of the Engineer accelerant and transform the colonists into 2000 eggs than to make a Queen. I don't think Scott cares about what anyone introduced into the series after 'ALIEN' and so far he's not budged.
We've seen Scott re-introduce so many elements that were discarded from the 1979 movie and brought back into 'PROMETHEUS'.
I bet he aint done doing so yet.
2000 eggmorphed colonists on a ship that David decides to reroute to an established colony world is where I envisage the next movie heading. An 'ALIENS' conflict between colonial military forces and an Aliens infested world on a large scale is likely to be the centerpiece of the next movie. Clearly, Scott needs no Queen for that. What would be the point?
-Windebieste.
Just give me a good story and good characters. Everything Alien related is tertiary to me. It's the frosting on the cake but not the cake.
Quote from: windebieste on Jun 30, 2017, 03:29:03 AM
The more I think about it, eggmorphing is the more likely outcome.
These movies have not only been about creation, but also about transformation. It makes more sense for David to have finally harnessed the properties of the Engineer accelerant and transform the colonists into 2000 eggs than to make a Queen. I don't think Scott cares about what anyone introduced into the series after 'ALIEN' and so far he's not budged.
We've seen Scott re-introduce so many elements that were discarded from the 1979 movie and brought back into 'PROMETHEUS'.
I bet he aint done doing so yet.
2000 eggmorphed colonists on a ship that David decides to reroute to an established colony world is where I envisage the next movie heading. An 'ALIENS' conflict between colonial military forces and an Aliens infested world on a large scale is likely to be the centerpiece of the next movie. Clearly, Scott needs no Queen for that. What would be the point?
-Windebieste.
That sounds like utter bullshit.
Hey, LCpl Dingdong, feel free to add me to your ignore list, too. It will make us both happier. lol.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 29, 2017, 10:06:46 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jun 28, 2017, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 28, 2017, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Well, that's not a very fair comparison, is it? :D Aliens is like 31 years old, things work differently now. It's much more expensive to make a film nowadays.
Not really. Most of it is advertising, A-list actors and CG. Covenant is clearly CG-heavy. So, yeah you could be right in the essence that it is much more expensive to make a film that general audiences are expecting (heavy CG and A-list actors like Guy Pierce, Michael Fassbender x2, etc)...
No advertising is included in the production budget. To get a basic idea of the advertising budget take the cost of the film before tax breaks (which is roughly 110m for Covenant) and double it. So $97m (after breaks) for production and roughly 110m for global advertising. This gives a very rough break even point of $207m for Covenant.
It's also unfair because the market for Aliens was solely based on Domestic market. The international market was barely seen as a thing in the 1980's. There is another huge factor is that James Cameron came from the Roger Corman school. He learned very young how to make a movie with zero budget look really good. Battle Beyond the Stars looks (and sounds thanks to James Horner) way better than it should. Terminator looks f**king great on under half the budget of Aliens. Cameron was fantastic at working with limitations budget wise. This in his younger years was his greatest strength.
Do not mistake this for me having enjoyed Covenant. I thought it was a steaming pile of shit tossed into a dumpster and set on fire. It would be Alien:R bad if not for Scott's direction. I really did not enjoy the film at all. But I wanted Prometheus 2 not another Alien film. I view this movie as a step backwards.
Quote from: fiveways on Jun 30, 2017, 06:10:36 AM
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 29, 2017, 10:06:46 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jun 28, 2017, 08:54:53 PM
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 28, 2017, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Budget was $97m, and this has made a lot less than Prometheus. It hasn't flopped, but I underperforming is a fair assessment.
Yep. And Aliens, by comparison, cost a mere fraction of that to make. Utter waste.
Well, that's not a very fair comparison, is it? :D Aliens is like 31 years old, things work differently now. It's much more expensive to make a film nowadays.
Not really. Most of it is advertising, A-list actors and CG. Covenant is clearly CG-heavy. So, yeah you could be right in the essence that it is much more expensive to make a film that general audiences are expecting (heavy CG and A-list actors like Guy Pierce, Michael Fassbender x2, etc)...
No advertising is included in the production budget. To get a basic idea of the advertising budget take the cost of the film before tax breaks (which is roughly 110m for Covenant) and double it. So $97m (after breaks) for production and roughly 110m for global advertising. This gives a very rough break even point of $207m for Covenant.
It's also unfair because the market for Aliens was solely based on Domestic market. The international market was barely seen as a thing in the 1980's. There is another huge factor is that James Cameron came from the Roger Corman school. He learned very young how to make a movie with zero budget look really good. Battle Beyond the Stars looks (and sounds thanks to James Horner) way better than it should. Terminator looks f**king great on under half the budget of Aliens. Cameron was fantastic at working with limitations budget wise. This in his younger years was his greatest strength.
Do not mistake this for me having enjoyed Covenant. I thought it was a steaming pile of shit tossed into a dumpster and set on fire. It would be Alien:R bad if not for Scott's direction. I really did not enjoy the film at all. But I wanted Prometheus 2 not another Alien film. I view this movie as a step backwards.
Even excluding ads they still spent out ass on CG and Michael Fassbender x2 and Pierce. Not to mention all of the prod. crew and specil FX and other related things they spent more on than any Alien besides Prometheus.
Quote from: windebieste on Jun 30, 2017, 05:22:50 AM
Hey, LCpl Dingdong, feel free to add me to your ignore list, too. It will make us both happier. lol.
-Windebieste.
Done.
Adjusted for inflation Alien 3 and Resurrection would cost way more Covenant.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 29, 2017, 11:58:21 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 29, 2017, 11:52:53 PM
And there's a range of factor why it's not accurate comparison.
You know, in your many responses to me around the forum I've not seen you once back up any of your claims which seem to just be the sake of following me around the forum and criticizing me.
I've known SM for a coon's age and have never seen him abusive. Like all of us here, he loves the franchise. Like many of us, he has a low tolerance for baseless assertions. Unlike most of us, he takes the time to ask the questions and expose the lack of supportive evidence. He's a recognized expert and has consulted on many officially-sanctioned projects. Heck, he has even pointed out the undeniable flaws in my own theories and I've been swimming these waters as long as he has. Maybe dial back the hyperbole; otherwise, you have some interesting observations about the franchise. Well, at least those without. four. letter. words. :)
I often find heeding the wisdom of the undisputed Nostromo master, is a safe course. :)
I seriously doubt SM is following any particular person around. Unfortunately, we're at a point where the only active web communities for Alien and Predator outside of Facebook are just here (yay!) and Scified (boo!).
And SM isn't wrong. These are supposed to be places of discussion, not echo chambers (for the negative or positive).
We should expect - and rightfully so - to be corrected or questioned or praised or agreed with. Whatever. The whole lot.
Anyway. Enough of this. Let's get back on topic.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 30, 2017, 08:41:30 AM
I seriously doubt SM is following any particular person around. Unfortunately, we're at a point where the only active web communities for Alien and Predator outside of Facebook are just here (yay!) and Scified (boo!).
And SM isn't wrong. These are supposed to be places of discussion, not echo chambers (for the negative or positive).
We should expect - and rightfully so - to be corrected or questioned or praised or agreed with. Whatever. The whole lot.
True. See,
this^ is what I respect and respond well to.
Education. If I am wrong,
educate me do not
belittle me. If you just belittle me I'm liable to just snap your head off verbally (not a good personality trait I realize but I have a quick reaction to bullshit).
Not looking to prolong this but I'm fairly certain (without going back and checking) that reasons were given during this particular discussion. Inflation, cost of film making rising, promotion not being including in production costs, etc.
Also, I suggest taking the time to compose yourself before just reacting. It doesn't do anyone any favors. And that goes for everyone.
As I said though, enough of this. I shouldn't need to say any more on the matter. Back on topic, please gents.
You won't like him when he's angry.
I think it should be cameoed in the last film but not as a protagonist
The problem I see with the Queen and the alien hive idea is that it is now a bug, and the further details they describe in a bugs story the LESS horrific it is and more of a focus on alien bugs. We lose the horror aspect of it.
A re-treading of this idea is impossible with todays technology , to do practical effects like that is a waste of effort without CGI placed in,and when CGI is placed in, they will likely just replace the whole practical effect in post to put in even more detail.
So whats the point?
The bug hierarchy system was only cool in comics, and to place that into a film is like doing a Starship Troopers film and then it becomes an action film which ultimately includes humans as the ultimate action hero.
The queen should stay an abstract figure much like in the poster. It will serve no other purpose but to be a nod to the previous film.
Then it no longer becomes a horror film.
Quote from: acrediblesource on Jul 02, 2017, 05:16:05 PM
The problem I see with the Queen and the alien hive idea is that it is now a bug, and the further details they describe in a bugs story the LESS horrific it is and more of a focus on alien bugs. We lose the horror aspect of it.
Absolutely not
A. the original Alien was always supposed to be insectoid with O'Bannon/Scott/Giger calling it such and drawing from the insect world for many of its essential traits
B. in Aliens families are abducted into a big rape orgy in what is fundamentally the industrialization of their deaths. They are taken, forcefully impregnated and killed to give birth. Men, women and children alike without any sort of filter. Doesn't seem the thing you'd like to see in your backyard
C. having a hive doesn't necessarily turn the film it is in an action film. There's several ways to declinate the idea and Aliens itself is mostly a horror film as opposed to an action film
Bugs here on earth can be (and often are) horrific, hence why the alien has always been influenced and inspired by insects.
When I watch Aliens, the Xenomorphs feel like giant bugs to me. And they don't scare me that much. But the Xenomorph in Alien doesn't really feel like a bug to me at all, and it's much creepier. It might have been inspired by insects, but it's much more than just an insect. The beautiful design, the way it moves, and the way it kills its victims makes it so much more elegant and haunting. In Aliens they're just big nasty bugs, most of the time. Same for Covenant, sadly. And the queen just reinforces that. Don't get me wrong, I like the queen, but it does dumb down the Xenomorph a lot imo. I hope it's not used in the prequel films. I'd prefer eggmorphing, even though it's not perfect either.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 02, 2017, 05:48:05 PM
When I watch Aliens, the Xenomorphs feel like giant bugs to me. And they don't scare me that much. But the Xenomorph in Alien doesn't really feel like a bug to me at all, and it's much creepier. It might have been inspired by insects, but it's much more than just an insect The beautiful design, the way it moves, and the way it kills its victims makes it so much more elegant and haunting. In Aliens they're just big nasty bugs, most of the time. Same for Covenant, sadly. And the queen just reinforces that. Don't get me wrong, I like the queen, but it does dumb down the Xenomorph a lot imo. I hope it's not used in the prequel films. I'd prefer eggmorphing, even though it's not perfect either.
That's my opinion, too. Couldn't have said it better, beside the eggmorphing issue. I love this concept and wish it would be used in future alien movies and other merchandise (books, comics and games).
They kind of wrote themselves into a corner having David smuggle the conventional monsters onto the Covenant. But it did allow them to sidestep the question of which came first, the queen or the egg? We got eggs without queens. Hopefully the facehuggers infect Engineers, not humans, or some other species entirely, so that the series doesn't get too repetitive. But after those facehuggers infect their hosts, the aliens that are born must be queens, or they eggmorph their victims, or they die out. They are going to have a hard time explaining the derelict from Alien without a queen, unless they intend to retcon her out. Maybe they have a solution, but I think they wrote themselves into a corner where they have to address the queen issue, and it's a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario. Either show the queen or retcon her out. Looking at the results of the poll, this next movie will divide fans even further no matter which option they choose.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 02, 2017, 05:33:39 PM
Bugs here on earth can be (and often are) horrific, hence why the alien has always been influenced and inspired by insects.
You think? Look at this cutie fam not horrifying at all
That's creepy. But the Xenomorphs in Aliens are more comparable to ants/bees, and those are not that horrifying. ;)
Quote from: StJimmy on Jun 28, 2017, 04:59:15 PM
Egg-morphing is just stupid body horror for body horror's sake and makes no logical sense.
Why doesn't it make logical sense? If you understand the concept it makes perfect sense - admittedly 'egg-morphing' is a misnomer but it works as an idea beautifully and is much more alien than the giant insect analogy.
BTW - ALIEN is body horror all the way. Makes sense to stay with the theme.
Yeah i dont get it. Still seems very insectile in alien to me, more like a praying mantis. The limitations of the suit were also a big factor in its slow movement.
The alien already had a hive/nest and cocooning function in alien even if it was deleted. only thing that changed with the queen was that she makes the eggs instead.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 02, 2017, 06:58:02 PM
That's creepy. But the Xenomorphs in Aliens are more comparable to ants/bees, and those are not that horrifying. ;)
Because you've never seen what certain wasps and ants do fam
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 02, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 02, 2017, 06:58:02 PM
That's creepy. But the Xenomorphs in Aliens are more comparable to ants/bees, and those are not that horrifying. ;)
Because you've never seen what certain wasps and ants do fam
That's true. But whatever wasps/ants do, it's not what Xenomorphs do, otherwise I would have known about it. So the
Aliens Xenomorph is kind of like a watered down version of the wasp/ant, just bigger... when you think about it.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 03, 2017, 12:18:30 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 02, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 02, 2017, 06:58:02 PM
That's creepy. But the Xenomorphs in Aliens are more comparable to ants/bees, and those are not that horrifying. ;)
Because you've never seen what certain wasps and ants do fam
That's true. But whatever wasps/ants do, it's not what Xenomorphs do, otherwise I would have known about it. So the Aliens Xenomorph is kind of like a watered down version of the wasp/ant, just bigger... when you think about it.
You do know that Dan O'Bannons inspiration for the Alien came directly from a wasp right? Glyptapanteles i believe.
explained Alien writer Dan O'Bannon in his reflective essay, Something Perfectly Disgusting. "I also patterned the Alien's life cycle on real-life parasites ... parasitic wasps treat caterpillars in an altogether revolting manner, the study of which I recommend to anyone tired of having good dreams..." https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-insect-influence/
It always amazes me that so much of what people take from the first film actually originates in their own mind and not whats actually shown on screen.
"The Alien franchise bases its Xenomorph life cycle on parasitic wasps on Earth," Terry Johnson, a bio-engineering researcher at the University of California, told Popular Mechanics. "It's a pleasure to see a film that acknowledges just how weird life can be." But despite the blatant insectile nature of the Alien (specifically its four-staged life cycle and cocooning) and despite O'Bannon, Ron Cobb, Ron Shusett, HR Giger, and Ridley Scott being clear on the issue, fans have been reluctant to admit the insect influence on the original creature, instead brushing it off as an addition made by James Cameron in the 1986 sequel. However, in light of the evidence pointing to the original Alien makers being heavily and happily influenced by insects, attributing this to Cameron is akin to blaming wet streets for rain.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 02, 2017, 05:33:39 PM
Bugs here on earth can be (and often are) horrific, hence why the alien has always been influenced and inspired by insects.
Two words: insect politician.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 03, 2017, 02:46:04 AM
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 03, 2017, 12:18:30 AM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 02, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 02, 2017, 06:58:02 PM
That's creepy. But the Xenomorphs in Aliens are more comparable to ants/bees, and those are not that horrifying. ;)
Because you've never seen what certain wasps and ants do fam
That's true. But whatever wasps/ants do, it's not what Xenomorphs do, otherwise I would have known about it. So the Aliens Xenomorph is kind of like a watered down version of the wasp/ant, just bigger... when you think about it.
You do know that Dan O'Bannons inspiration for the Alien came directly from a wasp right? Glyptapanteles i believe.
explained Alien writer Dan O'Bannon in his reflective essay, Something Perfectly Disgusting. "I also patterned the Alien's life cycle on real-life parasites ... parasitic wasps treat caterpillars in an altogether revolting manner, the study of which I recommend to anyone tired of having good dreams..."
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-insect-influence/
It always amazes me that so much of what people take from the first film actually originates in their own mind and not whats actually shown on screen.
"The Alien franchise bases its Xenomorph life cycle on parasitic wasps on Earth," Terry Johnson, a bio-engineering researcher at the University of California, told Popular Mechanics. "It's a pleasure to see a film that acknowledges just how weird life can be." But despite the blatant insectile nature of the Alien (specifically its four-staged life cycle and cocooning) and despite O'Bannon, Ron Cobb, Ron Shusett, HR Giger, and Ridley Scott being clear on the issue, fans have been reluctant to admit the insect influence on the original creature, instead brushing it off as an addition made by James Cameron in the 1986 sequel. However, in light of the evidence pointing to the original Alien makers being heavily and happily influenced by insects, attributing this to Cameron is akin to blaming wet streets for rain.
I'll try and explain myself a little better. I know a lot of elements of the original Alien are straight up copied from certain insects, like the life cycle with the cocooning and all. That's obviously because it's influenced by insects, like your quoted text says. But the elegance and creepiness of the original Alien makes it come across as much more than that in the original film. And those aspects might have actually been inspired by insects as well, sure. Then I'm fine with it, really. But in
Aliens they don't have that elegance, or creepiness. To me they're just big dumb mindless animals most of the time. Does that mean they're like insects? Apparently not, because insects
can be elegant and creepy, as I have learned in this thread. So I suppose I'm fine with the Xenomorph being heavily inspired by insects, as long as it is elegant, and genuinely creepy.
Aliens misses that, in my opinion.
Covenant as well. And the queen, well, the queen actually is pretty elegant and creepy at times. But the thing is, it dumbs down all the other Xenomorphs around her!
I hope that makes clear how I feel about all this. :)
In what way did they lack elegance and creepiness in Aliens?
Well, in a lot of ways!
I mean this:
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/c3004b9db9ea5ee347b40b496438488f/tumblr_myymflw5Yr1qaf3uxo1_500.gif)
Now that's just beautifully haunting.
But in Aliens, they're just jumping around most of the time - And I guess that makes sense, because they're in a much more chaotic situation. But I wish they would have still tried to make them appear more elegant and efficient like in the first film. Most of the time in Aliens they just run right into the gunfire and get shot. Now of course there are still some moments where do they show their elegance/creepiness:
(https://s.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/7fa888fce69c50d2c3eb8d4e54081097/204075379/2_NewtAliensCapture.gif)
But it still doesn't look as good as the original, it looks cheaper. The suits look downgraded, but I guess that was because they needed multiple suits and they couldn't afford much better. Too bad Cameron took the dome off.
They move slow until they need to move fast in both films as far as I can see. They need to move fast more in Aliens because they're facing an actual threat.
And I'm not really seeing a lack of creepiness or elegance in the gif you posted.
Did you properly read my post? ::)
Yeah. Why?
I was stating that the gif from Aliens is one of the few examples where it is elegant and creepy. You thought I was saying it isn't elegant and creepy. I also said what you basically said: That the Aliens move faster because there's a bigger threat. So I assumed you didn't properly read it, as you probably misunderstood what I said.
Quote from: Protozoid on Jul 02, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
They kind of wrote themselves into a corner having David smuggle the conventional monsters onto the Covenant. But it did allow them to sidestep the question of which came first, the queen or the egg? We got eggs without queens. Hopefully the facehuggers infect Engineers, not humans, or some other species entirely, so that the series doesn't get too repetitive. But after those facehuggers infect their hosts, the aliens that are born must be queens, or they eggmorph their victims, or they die out. They are going to have a hard time explaining the derelict from Alien without a queen, unless they intend to retcon her out. Maybe they have a solution, but I think they wrote themselves into a corner where they have to address the queen issue, and it's a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario. Either show the queen or retcon her out. Looking at the results of the poll, this next movie will divide fans even further no matter which option they choose.
I don't think the xeno is supposed to have a set lifecycle in in Scotts mind. The goo is supposed to be wild and unpredictable so the queen showing up depending on how it is prsented would be in line with what we have seen so far. That is if they decide to bring her in.
I just hope Scott has the good sense and lets it be an evolution kind of thing and not a result of something that David does on purpose. Him having a hand in bringing her out would be fine but it needs to be an unexpected thing and not a planned creation.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 03, 2017, 09:14:34 PM
I was stating that the gif from Aliens is one of the few examples where it is elegant and creepy. You thought I was saying it isn't elegant and creepy. I also said what you basically said: That the Aliens move faster because there's a bigger threat. So I assumed you didn't properly read it, as you probably misunderstood what I said.
Ah. Yes I did misread it.
It happens to everyone sometimes. 8)
Quote from: Rankles75 on Jun 21, 2017, 03:15:24 PM
No reason why both egg morphing and the Alien Queen can't exist. A "drone" should have the ability, in a situation where there is no Queen, to egg morph someone in order to propagate the species...
This^
The Aliens are bio-engineered by David. So he could have put in contingencies for efficiency. If there are enough host organisms, start laying eggs via a queen. If not, then egg-morph.
But if Ridley Scott decides to retcon Aliens, I would walk away from the series. Aliens and Alien are the core. Two of the best films of all time. No messing with that.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 03, 2017, 08:41:43 PM
Well, in a lot of ways!
I mean this:
https://33.media.tumblr.com/c3004b9db9ea5ee347b40b496438488f/tumblr_myymflw5Yr1qaf3uxo1_500.gif
Now that's just beautifully haunting.
But in Aliens, they're just jumping around most of the time - And I guess that makes sense, because they're in a much more chaotic situation. But I wish they would have still tried to make them appear more elegant and efficient like in the first film. Most of the time in Aliens they just run right into the gunfire and get shot. Now of course there are still some moments where do they show their elegance/creepiness:
https://s.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/7fa888fce69c50d2c3eb8d4e54081097/204075379/2_NewtAliensCapture.gif
But it still doesn't look as good as the original, it looks cheaper. The suits look downgraded, but I guess that was because they needed multiple suits and they couldn't afford much better. Too bad Cameron took the dome off.
You got to be kidding me. When I saw this as I turned 10, it gave me nightmares to last a lifetime! Still excellent quality nightmares that surface from time to time...
Well, that's kinda what I'm saying. IMO it's one of the few moments in Aliens where a Xeno is actually creepy and elegant. I wish there was more of that. But, it still doesn't look quite as good as in Alien.
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Magic Queen egg from Alien 3.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Easily dealt with if a drone was made capable of eggmorphing and/or morphing into a queen when no queen is present.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Maybe any drone is capable of becoming a queen? But they only choose 1? Problem solved.
Retconning Aliens, one of the best sci-fi pics of all time is not just sacrilege for the series, it is really dumb business.
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 01:12:42 AM
Magic Queen egg from Alien 3.
Wasn't that sufficiently explained in the Assembly Cut?
Resolved? Not really; but just because it hasn't been explained doesn't mean it can't be explained.
The problem is, Fox is the only organisation that can provide a canonical explanation. Fans attempting to making such explanations just get cut down by other fans. Every time. So, don't even bother trying.
Only Fox can provide an answer to this one and just calling it 'magical' simply demonstrates the unwilliingness among people to accept it's possible.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 04, 2017, 02:19:51 AM
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 01:12:42 AM
Magic Queen egg from Alien 3.
Wasn't that sufficiently explained in the Assembly Cut?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.memes.com%2Fmeme%2F638004&hash=6b195f164d07d0f63889dce38eccfcca7233dbcd)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 01:17:44 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Easily dealt with if a drone was made capable of eggmorphing and/or morphing into a queen when no queen is present.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 04, 2017, 02:10:20 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Maybe any drone is capable of becoming a queen? But they only choose 1? Problem solved.
Retconning Aliens, one of the best sci-fi pics of all time is not just sacrilege for the series, it is really dumb business.
We have not seen a drone morphing into a queen. Therefore it isn't canon with the series. If they want to depict it in a future film, though, is a different story. But Aliens (1986) introducing the Queen and ignoring egg morphing, sets up a major weakness for the aliens that still has not been addressed in any film, unless you count multiple queens being born.
The Aliens aren't immortal. If they die, then they die.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 02:53:56 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 01:17:44 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Easily dealt with if a drone was made capable of eggmorphing and/or morphing into a queen when no queen is present.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 04, 2017, 02:10:20 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Maybe any drone is capable of becoming a queen? But they only choose 1? Problem solved.
Retconning Aliens, one of the best sci-fi pics of all time is not just sacrilege for the series, it is really dumb business.
We have not seen a drone morphing into a queen. Therefore it isn't canon with the series. If they want to depict it in a future film, though, is a different story. But Aliens (1986) introducing the Queen and ignoring egg morphing, sets up a major weakness for the aliens that still has not been addressed in any film, unless you count multiple queens being born.
We've never seen this supposed egg morphing either. By other accounts that isn't even what's happening.
What's happening to Brett and Dallas in the DC then?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 02:53:56 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 01:17:44 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Easily dealt with if a drone was made capable of eggmorphing and/or morphing into a queen when no queen is present.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 04, 2017, 02:10:20 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 01:09:15 AM
The Queen is actually a major weakness for the aliens. If the Queen dies, the aliens can't reproduce. Unless they introduce something else into the lifecycle, but this has never been addressed. Unless they have more than one Queen.
Maybe any drone is capable of becoming a queen? But they only choose 1? Problem solved.
Retconning Aliens, one of the best sci-fi pics of all time is not just sacrilege for the series, it is really dumb business.
We have not seen a drone morphing into a queen. Therefore it isn't canon with the series. If they want to depict it in a future film, though, is a different story. But Aliens (1986) introducing the Queen and ignoring egg morphing, sets up a major weakness for the aliens that still has not been addressed in any film, unless you count multiple queens being born.
In aliens there were lots of eggs and facehuggers around, any of them could have another queen had the whole facility not blown up.
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 04:50:22 AM
What's happening to Brett and Dallas in the DC then?
Well you'd know as well as anyone that there's a bunch of people that think they were going into a full egg with face hugger (essentially back to the start) whilst there are other people and other quotes that just think Brett and Dallas were food for either a new egg or the Alien.
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
So youre saying theres a "major weakness" with having the queen, unless there can be more queens born, which there can because it already happened in alien 3?
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 05:43:26 AM
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
The Alien might have made the egg and put him inside it. They make hives that look weird too. I mean Dallas say's he's being eatin. That means he's food right?
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
So youre saying theres a "major weakness" with having the queen, unless there can be more queens born, which there can because it already happened in alien 3?
But having multiple queens doesn't make sense. Wasps don't do it. Ants don't do it. How does that make sense?
Japanese hornets do.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
So youre saying theres a "major weakness" with having the queen, unless there can be more queens born, which there can because it already happened in alien 3?
But having multiple queens doesn't make sense. Wasps don't do it. Ants don't do it. How does that make sense?
I think ants do have multiple queens. That actually makes more sense to me.
Quote from: Highland on Jul 04, 2017, 05:51:39 AM
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 05:43:26 AM
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
The Alien might have made the egg and put him inside it. They make hives that look weird too. I mean Dallas say's he's being eatin. That means he's food right?
Depends if you take a script over what ended up on screen. And your interpretation of 'food'.
If you go with, the Alien starts off a process whereby some substance eats Brett and Dallas and 'excretes' the material that becomes the egg and facehugger - works for me.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
So youre saying theres a "major weakness" with having the queen, unless there can be more queens born, which there can because it already happened in alien 3?
But having multiple queens doesn't make sense. Wasps don't do it. Ants don't do it. How does that make sense?
Dear god, just use your imagination, even slightly.
Maybe when a queen dies or isnt around a facehugger ensures a queen is implanted. Its an alien, why does it have to make sense to us? Eggmorphing, queen morphing, another queen born, multiple queens, or whatever you want, take your pick.
And some hive insects do have multiple queens so yeah it does make sense in that regard.
I need take a break from this place.
;D
Patience, young Padawan.
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 06:05:08 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jul 04, 2017, 05:51:39 AM
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 05:43:26 AM
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
The Alien might have made the egg and put him inside it. They make hives that look weird too. I mean Dallas say's he's being eatin. That means he's food right?
Depends if you take a script over what ended up on screen. And your interpretation of 'food'.
If you go with, the Alien starts off a process whereby some substance eats Brett and Dallas and 'excretes' the material that becomes the egg and facehugger - works for me.
I don't mind the egg morphing, but I think I prefer the version where the egg just makes another Alien (or a queen) as opposed to the face hugger.
That's a version? Like in Resurrection? ???
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 06:54:54 AM
That's a version? Like in Resurrection? ???
Well the problem with making another face hugger for me is that it sort of limits how quickly they can spread. Although ultimately I guess whatever version you run with, you're still going to need lots of hosts at some point.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 06:25:11 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 04, 2017, 05:46:12 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 04, 2017, 05:26:50 AM
Well, yeah, the egg in Alien 3 had a queen in it so that's why I mentioned multiple queens.
So youre saying theres a "major weakness" with having the queen, unless there can be more queens born, which there can because it already happened in alien 3?
But having multiple queens doesn't make sense. Wasps don't do it. Ants don't do it. How does that make sense?
Dear god, just use your imagination, even slightly.
This should help.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGbWfAL2.jpg&hash=54331b6abbad836c113674503b3aeef6dd9b0464)
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 06:05:08 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jul 04, 2017, 05:51:39 AM
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 05:43:26 AM
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
The Alien might have made the egg and put him inside it. They make hives that look weird too. I mean Dallas say's he's being eatin. That means he's food right?
Depends if you take a script over what ended up on screen. And your interpretation of 'food'.
If you go with, the Alien starts off a process whereby some substance eats Brett and Dallas and 'excretes' the material that becomes the egg and facehugger - works for me.
I love it. It kind of turns my stomach, which means it's just sick enough.
I feel like one of the benefits to the introduction of the black liquid, is that the xenomorph can possibly not be tied to any set of rules. Extreme mutations can happen from generation to generation, adapting the organism to whatever environment it's in. Instead of ending up at the queen, I'd like to see more variety in the organism. Perhaps simply its ability to adapt makes it perfect.
Maybe Big Chap vomited a facehugger embryo into Dallas' mouth off-screen and it eggmorphed him from the inside out. It's not a bad concept, it was just badly executed in a bad film. It's suitably disgusting too.
Egg Morphing > the Queen in my mind. It always will be. It's a fantastic body horror element and fits in line with the Alien universe (or at least my concept of the alien universe) than the Queen ever will.
Guys, this egg-morphing concept needs to be reevaluated. According to these quotes from Ridley, it was never actually a thing:
https://youtu.be/c8mxzDeKdoQ?t=2m39s (https://youtu.be/c8mxzDeKdoQ?t=2m39s)
The deleted scene in Alien showed eggs that had already been laid, (presumably by the lone xeno on the Nostromo). The cocooned victims were just being dissolved as food for the facehuggers in those eggs.
Ridley probably won't go "back" to the egg-morphing concept because it was never an intention of his in the first place.
Quote from: necrotard on Jul 04, 2017, 02:55:21 PM
Guys, this egg-morphing concept needs to be reevaluated. According to these quotes from Ridley, it was never actually a thing:
https://youtu.be/c8mxzDeKdoQ?t=2m39s (https://youtu.be/c8mxzDeKdoQ?t=2m39s)
The deleted scene in Alien showed eggs that had already been laid, (presumably by the lone xeno on the Nostromo). The cocooned victims were just being dissolved as food for the facehuggers in those eggs.
Ridley probably won't go "back" to the egg-morphing concept because it was never an intention of his in the first place.
That's sad. Eggmorphing is way more interesting then that.
But, I'm also one of the weirdos that thinks Ridley was the least creative person involved with Alien. So it really shouldn't surprise me.
It also could be totally changed. Ridley also said the ship on LV-426 was a bomber from an ancient war. Now it's just Michael Fassbender in a suit (yes that isn't confirmed but we all figure that is where it is going). Things change.
The whole concept is confused when you look behind the scenes. What ends up on screen tends to follow the script - which is clearer, which is Brett became an egg. Sometimes what you see in the movie is simpler - particularly where Ridley is concerned. Some things he says are a bit wtf.
How Brett becomes an egg beyond 'the Alien did something to him' and what the actual process is, is anyone's guess.
Quote from: windebieste on Jul 04, 2017, 02:26:27 AMFans attempting to making such explanations just get cut down by other fans. Every time. So, don't even bother trying.
But my theories have always been welcomed with open arms.
I don't see why both versions can't exist at the same time. Again, that seems to make more sense to me than just one particular process.
I don't think the Queen should be introduced at all. These movies need to show a steady evolution of the species. I do think that the Weyland-Yutani corp. should be a major story in the next alien film. Seems like they have set up pretty nicely the company angle from the end of covenant moving forward. We shall see though.
Quote from: SM on Jul 04, 2017, 05:43:26 AM
Why did Brett look like an egg if he was food for an egg? And what does an egg eat? Bacon?
The egg was growing around him like a fungus, using him as nutrition. At least that's what I gather from the some behind the scenes stuff -- and it makes more sense than Brett literally "becoming" an egg
I do agree there wasn't a definitive single concept and there are contradicting accounts on it
The fungus using him as nutrition and him becoming an egg sound like the same thing - just a slightly different process to get the same result..
Him "becoming" an egg to me always sounded like his DNA had been rewritten/infected (or some other process) in order for him to literally metamorphose into an egg; as opposed to being used as food by a growing spore/egg
Or I'm overseeing things because I'm a biology student. Idk
But where comes the facehugger into play?
Is its larvae already in the body while the egg is growing?
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 05, 2017, 07:27:41 AM
Him "becoming" an egg to me always sounded like his DNA had been rewritten/infected (or some other process) in order for him to literally metamorphose into an egg; as opposed to being used as food by a growing spore/egg
Or I'm overseeing things because I'm a biology student. Idk
No that's exactly how I think they see it as well (or at least that's how it comes across). I'm no Biologist but your thoughts sound the same as mine.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 05, 2017, 07:27:41 AM
Him "becoming" an egg to me always sounded like his DNA had been rewritten/infected (or some other process) in order for him to literally metamorphose into an egg; as opposed to being used as food by a growing spore/egg
Or I'm overseeing things because I'm a biology student. Idk
Thats how i always saw it.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 03, 2017, 02:46:04 AM
It always amazes me that so much of what people take from the first film actually originates in their own mind and not whats actually shown on screen.
"The Alien franchise bases its Xenomorph life cycle on parasitic wasps on Earth," Terry Johnson, a bio-engineering researcher at the University of California, told Popular Mechanics. "It's a pleasure to see a film that acknowledges just how weird life can be." But despite the blatant insectile nature of the Alien (specifically its four-staged life cycle and cocooning) and despite O'Bannon, Ron Cobb, Ron Shusett, HR Giger, and Ridley Scott being clear on the issue, fans have been reluctant to admit the insect influence on the original creature, instead brushing it off as an addition made by James Cameron in the 1986 sequel. However, in light of the evidence pointing to the original Alien makers being heavily and happily influenced by insects, attributing this to Cameron is akin to blaming wet streets for rain.
The insect influence is undeniable, at least in the parasitic invasive nature of it's reproduction. 'Aliens' labours the point a little too heavily though - hive - cocoon larder - acquiescent drones - an egg laying queen - it really takes away a lot of the stalking horror establised by Kane's Son. The black goo allows for the queen hive structure to be one route of the species as its settles into a more natural life cycle, but it's far removed from the more disturbing original concepts that I'd prefer they now stick to.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 22, 2017, 09:05:16 PM
Quote from: Kimo on Jun 22, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
Give me Egg Morphing any day... But I think Cameron's Hive type of Aliens should at least be acknowledge in a future film of Ridley's. It don't have to be forced up on us, however a little nod to the queen would be nice if it's something simple as dialogue or an abandoned experiment of Davids. Infact I would love to see David's final "f**k you" moment to the Engineers race, at the end of Ridley Scotts prequels as a nod to Cameron's Queen being a creation of Davids. I would rather see David as the creator of the Hive insect type of Aliens then the classic Xenomorph from Alien.
Why? And to the bold, he's already been shown to have created a strain in Covenant that is closely related to Kane's Son, with only slight variations of the strain. It would be much more terrifying if the Queen was naturally connected to the Accelerant without any human involvement.
No. The xeno in Covenant is the one in Alien just modified. All of these people talking about it not are just unable to except the truth and move on. Which is every movie has had a new xeno design just because thats what Hollywood does. Its never stated anywhere that this is a PROTO form of any sort. This whole Kane's Son bullocks is getting old.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Jun 22, 2017, 09:05:16 PM
Quote from: Kimo on Jun 22, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
Give me Egg Morphing any day... But I think Cameron's Hive type of Aliens should at least be acknowledge in a future film of Ridley's. It don't have to be forced up on us, however a little nod to the queen would be nice if it's something simple as dialogue or an abandoned experiment of Davids. Infact I would love to see David's final "f**k you" moment to the Engineers race, at the end of Ridley Scotts prequels as a nod to Cameron's Queen being a creation of Davids. I would rather see David as the creator of the Hive insect type of Aliens then the classic Xenomorph from Alien.
Why? And to the bold, he's already been shown to have created a strain in Covenant that is closely related to Kane's Son, with only slight variations of the strain. It would be much more terrifying if the Queen was naturally connected to the Accelerant without any human involvement.
I don't like the fact that it looks like David is now the sole creator of the Alien species after watching Covenant. :( I like to think of the Xenomorphs being some ancient species that was around long before man ever was. I would be happy if the original Xenomorphs that David had nothing to do with, was either a Queen or Kane's Son since I love both Alien and Aliens. However since I prefer the Egg morphing idea over the Queen. I would personally rather have the queen as a creation of Davids and not the Xeno from the first film. It's just personal choice, but thinking about your post the Queen could work just as well as a final f**k you from David to the engineers.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 05, 2017, 07:27:41 AM
Him "becoming" an egg to me always sounded like his DNA had been rewritten/infected (or some other process) in order for him to literally metamorphose into an egg; as opposed to being used as food by a growing spore/egg
Or I'm overseeing things because I'm a biology student. Idk
I very much agree, I think the idea of having a "King" Alien is weird. I like the traditional Queen alone.
Severing ties with James Cameron's Aliens by ignoring the queen would be commercial suicide, and rightfully so. I do feel though that Scott is just vain enough to be really bothered by ALIENS being more popular than Alien. James Cameron simply made a better film as a sequel...
Vain enough?
James Cameron ignored egg morphing in favour of his queen idea:
QuoteBriggs' next beef is with the Alien Queen, and for several reasons. His contention is that she destroys the original intention of the missing scene in ALIEN. This is perfectly correct, but I find it somewhat irrelevant since as an audience member and as a filmmaker creating a sequel, I can really only be responsible to those elements which actually appeared in the first film and not to its "intentions." ALIEN screenwriter Dan O'Bannon's proposed life cycle, as completed in the unseen scene, would have been too restricting for me as a storyteller and I would assume that few fans of ALIENS would be willing to trade the final cat-fight between the moms for a point of technical accuracy that only a microscopic percentage of ALIEN fans might be aware of.
James Cameron, Starlog, December 1987
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 10, 2018, 04:35:51 AM
Severing ties with James Cameron's Aliens by ignoring the queen would be commercial suicide, and rightfully so. I do feel though that Scott is just vain enough to be really bothered by ALIENS being more popular than Alien. James Cameron simply made a better film as a sequel...
I don't think either Riddles or Jimbo believe that Aliens is better.
Simply has to be, its undebatable.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 10, 2018, 05:59:48 AM
Vain enough?
James Cameron ignored egg morphing in favour of his queen idea:
QuoteBriggs' next beef is with the Alien Queen, and for several reasons. His contention is that she destroys the original intention of the missing scene in ALIEN. This is perfectly correct, but I find it somewhat irrelevant since as an audience member and as a filmmaker creating a sequel, I can really only be responsible to those elements which actually appeared in the first film and not to its "intentions." ALIEN screenwriter Dan O'Bannon's proposed life cycle, as completed in the unseen scene, would have been too restricting for me as a storyteller and I would assume that few fans of ALIENS would be willing to trade the final cat-fight between the moms for a point of technical accuracy that only a microscopic percentage of ALIEN fans might be aware of.
James Cameron, Starlog, December 1987
James Cameron is spot on here, and there is the implication that he was not aware of eggmorphing. But ultimately, eggmorphing was not in the original film, so JC did not retcon anything. To those, who wish to get rid of the queen, I would propose that she has a few fans here and there.
Moreover, as the aliens appear to be engineered rather than evolved, the eggmorphing and queen sequences can coexist..
He was aware of eggmorphing - he just thought it was dumb.
Oh. Well that's different. Thanks for that.
Anyway, it didn't make it into the final film so he justifiably had carte Blanche in this regard. Anyway, he made the right call which resulted in a sequel that overshadowed its predecessor in many ways.
Scott's story of the origins of the aliens makes this a moot point now. The aliens can come from whichever way that works for the story almost. That doesn't make it good, but it is moot.
Long live the queen..
Doesn't matter if it wasn't part of the final film, it's part of the lore. The Queen is a retcon, so if Ridley ignores the Queen, it's not retconning anything, it's just restoring the original continuity.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 11, 2018, 11:17:26 PM
Doesn't matter if it wasn't part of the final film, it's part of the lore. The Queen is a retcon, so if Ridley ignores the Queen, it's not retconning anything, it's just restoring the original continuity.
Queen makes more sense from the Bio Weapons POV. I don't see why both can't exist at the same time anyway.
Neither really sort the problem of the Xeno having a finite life span dependant on hosts, but then if you think of it as just a weapon it does make sense. Since it's not really supposed to sustain itself.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 11, 2018, 11:17:26 PM
Doesn't matter if it wasn't part of the final film, it's part of the lore. The Queen is a retcon, so if Ridley ignores the Queen, it's not retconning anything, it's just restoring the original continuity.
Part of the lore? really? ::)
You can do better than that can't you?
Some people seem to think that 'ALIEN' and 'ALIENS' were released at the same time but that's simply not true. from 1979 to 1986 there was only one movie. People like to forget that. For 6 years, 'ALIEN was stand alone. The Queen didn't exist. It didn't need to.
It was known from interviews and other documentation at the time ('Giger's ALIEN', for one) that the egg morphing scene existed and was considered EU by a lot of people at the time. Eggmorphing was how the Alien made eggs and completed its life cycle and it did so without any Queen.
Cameron came along in 1986 and ditched the idea for the Queen - how is that not a retcon? Go back to anytime prior to 1986 and you'll find eggmorphing discussed. Queen was introduced 6 years after the first movie. Don't forget that.
Personally, I think there's room for both; but if Scott ditches the Queen for eggmorphing, hey yes. Bring it! I'll happily herald it.
-Windebieste.
QuotePersonally, I think there's room for both
I agree. However, I don't like the idea of Scott writing the Queen out of existence. That would basically screw up 4 films worth of story. As well as basically nullifying the entirety of the EU.
If one takes Advent into account, I don't think Ridley is ignoring the Queen.
Quote from: SM on Jan 12, 2018, 04:06:46 AM
If one takes Advent into account, I don't think Ridley is ignoring the Queen.
If Ridley does the Queen it's ok though. It's super cooler and eviler and deep, so deep.
Quote from: SM on Jan 12, 2018, 04:06:46 AM
If one takes Advent into account, I don't think Ridley is ignoring the Queen.
But, what about the possibilitiy of the direction for a Covenant sequel changing? Would Advent even mean anything if Ridley course corrects again?
If the sequel negates Advent, then it negates it.
Impossible. Ridley is obsessed with continuity.
Quote from: SM on Jan 12, 2018, 04:48:03 AM
If the sequel negates Advent, then it negates it.
Que Sera Sera, eh?
Pretty much.
There is no queen alien in Advent short, the dialogue refers to Daniels as "my queen" No queen alien.
Quote from: SM on Jan 12, 2018, 05:25:47 AM
Pretty much.
No arguing that, only Ridley knows what Ridley wants to happen.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 05:32:03 AM
There is no queen alien in Advent short, the dialogue refers to Daniels as "my queen" No queen alien.
Comon scorp, even you can't be shifting the posts on this one. Technically, Shaw was his Queen if it was a love thing.
David mentions "My queen" and all the 1986 fanbois go uncontrollably limp and juicy over it. lol.
It might mean f**k all. David is a rampant nutter.
-Windebiestel
Exactly.
He's referring to Daniels. Unless the implication is he'll turn Daniels into an alien queen, which is kind of ridiculous.
Ridley Scott has a plan, and it's a very good plan, but we won't find out the full detail until the last prequel film is released. Until then, people just have to patient and stop complaining. He is the only one who has a real vision for this franchise.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 06:49:03 AM
Exactly.
He's referring to Daniels. Unless the implication is he'll turn Daniels into an alien queen, which is kind of ridiculous.
Ridley Scott has a plan, and it's a very good plan, but we won't find out the full detail until the last prequel film is released. Until then, people just have to patient and stop complaining. He is the only one who has a real vision for this franchise.
Why is that ridiculous? Sounds exactly what you guys would like. To me it also sounds exactly like something Scott would do and seems the most logical step considering he made your Proto from Shaw. The next stage surely involves another tinkering with Humans and Aliens and we already know Scott respects what Cameron did in the sequel ( i know it hurts ).
I'm pretty juiced up, like 8 Pulse Rifles out of 10 on the Queeno meter. Get some.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 06:49:03 AMUnless the implication is...
From what we have learned so far with Scott's approach to these movies only one thing is certain: Jumping to conclusions and then
basing expectations off of those conclusions is a sure recipe for disappointment.
Scott is out to maintain an element of subversive approach to these movies. He's not out to provide 'comfort food' for desperat fans. He's a long time, well respected film maker.
If he's not making what fans want to see - maybe it's not a problem with the movie. 'ALIEN: Covenant' is a great movie and a fabulous entry into the series. ...it's mostly a problem for people who just want more of 1986 served before them. Comfortable iconography neatly laid out to be devoured by indiscriminate comic book audiences who demand more of the same familiar tropes lifted straight from the 'good old days'. lol.
I am glad that Scott is the subversive old f**ker he is. It's brought a much needed freshness into a series that was choking on its own cliches.
Even if Scott does choose to embrace a 'Queen' in a future movie - it's a safe bet it will d
iffer dramatically from anything we have seen previously.
-Windebieste.
Or: AC is a mediocre film.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 05:32:03 AM
There is no queen alien in Advent short, the dialogue refers to Daniels as "my queen" No queen alien.
Read BETWEEN the lines..
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 06:55:27 AM
Why is that ridiculous?
He will do whatever works for the story. Scott is a filmmaker, he doesn't make fan films.
QuoteI'm pretty juiced up, like 8 Pulse Rifles out of 10 on the Queeno meter. Get some.
Laying off the caffeine might help.
Quote from: windebieste on Jan 12, 2018, 08:02:15 AM
Scott is out to maintain an element of subversive approach to these movies.
Well it's about the creation of a rape monster. On the one hand you have something very positive - creation. On the other you have something very dark and destructive. How can you not go subversive with it? It's not exactly McDonald's Happy Meal material.
Quote from: kwisatz on Jan 12, 2018, 08:07:21 AM
Or: AC is a mediocre film.
Thank you for you input.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 12, 2018, 08:10:19 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 05:32:03 AM
There is no queen alien in Advent short, the dialogue refers to Daniels as "my queen" No queen alien.
Read BETWEEN the lines..
I did, nothing but empty space there.
Quote from: windebieste on Jan 12, 2018, 06:15:27 AM
David mentions "My queen" and all the 1986 fanbois go uncontrollably limp and juicy over it. lol.
It might mean f**k all. David is a rampant nutter.
Really bored of your persistent attitude towards Aliens fans. Cut it out. If you can't contribute to a conversation civilly without slinging shit at some imagined enemy who happens to like another film, don't bother. Consider this a warning. For everyone. I'm sick of it. And I'm sick of having to repeat myself about it.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 11, 2018, 11:17:26 PM
Doesn't matter if it wasn't part of the final film, it's part of the lore. The Queen is a retcon, so if Ridley ignores the Queen, it's not retconning anything, it's just restoring the original continuity.
It wasn't in the released film so it wasn't canon or continuity. It was a fun aside and Cameron was under no obligation to follow on from it and he retconned nothing as a result of the Queen.
Personally, I hope we do get to see eggmorphing return. I've loved the idea ever since I first heard of it. I think there's space for both and I would hope that Scott will at least be mindful of trying to make the two coexist if he does decide to go down that route.
Scott is under no obligation to include the Queen, either.
But if something like a queen is in the next one, I'd be interested to see what Scott does with it. There's no explanation in Aliens of how the queen was made or where it comes from. It was just hanging up there. Leaving us to fill in the gaps of how it came to be.
I know about all the theories of what that is, but they are not canon.
We know how Queen's come to be.
They're born.
Yes, they're born. But you'll notice that neither Oram or Lope's chestbursters turned into queens.
You know what, screw this. There is no way an android could come up with something as hog f**king convoluted as the alien's evolution as mother nature, being the ice cold bitch that she is, ever could. Androids desire logic, nature desires chaos. God does not create in straight lines. Therefor God created the alien. How else can one explain goo --> egg --> facehugger --> chestburster --> Alien --> Queen. God is the only entity that would go so f**king far out of his way to deliver wrath upon a bunch of arrogant half-witted hairless chimps like us.
The Queen has to stay!
AI is more complex than anything Mother Nature could create.
The human brain for example, is the most complex thing in the known universe.
If in the future human beings can create something more complex than the human brain, such as AI, that means that an AI could create something even more complex than that.
In a way, AI is the next phase of evolution.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 11, 2018, 12:52:51 AM
Oh. Well that's different. Thanks for that.
Anyway, it didn't make it into the final film so he justifiably had carte Blanche in this regard. Anyway, he made the right call which resulted in a sequel that overshadowed its predecessor in many ways.
Scott's story of the origins of the aliens makes this a moot point now. The aliens can come from whichever way that works for the story almost. That doesn't make it good, but it is moot.
Long live the queen..
Cameron could have made the queen more of a xeno in the next development stage that acted as a leader or defender of the hive instead of her being the source of the eggs.
That way he could have kept the showdown and eggmorphing would still have been the main way of reproduction for the species.
Quote from: windebieste on Jan 12, 2018, 08:02:15 AM
If he's not making what fans want to see - maybe it's not a problem with the movie. 'ALIEN: Covenant' is a great movie and a fabulous entry into the series. ...it's mostly a problem for people who just want more of 1986 served before them.
-Windebieste.
Ehm, no. That is the worst approach any director can take. "Here, let me be antagonistic to my audience." Not good.
For the record, no, it isn't the problem that Covenant isn't like Aliens that has so many of us not liking it. It's that it doesn't seem to want to make up it's mind on where it wants to stand or what it wants to do. That's not being subversive, smart, creative, or compelling. Being wishy-washy with your themes and plotting is not good film making..
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 08:28:03 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 06:55:27 AM
Why is that ridiculous?
He will do whatever works for the story. Scott is a filmmaker, he doesn't make fan films.
I'm not talking about fans, I'm talking about the fact David made the Alien from Shaw. If he were to make a Queen it would make sense that he make it from Daniels (also conveniently ending her story line). Perhaps the fact Shaw could not give birth ( and Daniels can?) could be part of the reason why his initial effort was just the Alien and a future effort could be the Queen.
I'm just throwing out ideas. He's already said the movie is going to be about David, so what's Dave going to be doing exactly in this movie?
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 02:08:58 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 08:28:03 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 06:55:27 AM
Why is that ridiculous?
He will do whatever works for the story. Scott is a filmmaker, he doesn't make fan films.
I'm not talking about fans, I'm talking about the fact David made the Alien from Shaw. If he were to make a Queen it would make sense that he make it from Daniels (also conveniently ending her story line). Perhaps the fact Shaw could not give birth ( and Daniels can?) could be part of the reason why his initial effort was just the Alien and a future effort could be the Queen.
I'm just throwing out ideas. He's already said the movie is going to be about David, so what's Dave going to be doing exactly in this movie?
For some reason that really amused me.
It could work really well having Daniels somehow used to create a Queen but I would really like to see Egg-morphing in some capacity because its just so grotesque.
QuoteThank you for you input.
Hah come on lighten up Scorpio, i just don't like AC much.
But like the Corporal said the "ye don't like AC cause ye fap to Pulse Rifles and Queens" routine gets a bit annoying from time to time cause its so fukin dull and ignorant that one can't keep constantly ignoring the side blows.
I guess though its just a normal reaction if a thing you love, AC in this case, is directly or indirectly "attacked" by people, me involved, by just expressing our (negative) opinions about it.
I'm not saying AC is a shithole country btw, its just a bit troubled.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 02:08:58 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 12, 2018, 08:28:03 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 12, 2018, 06:55:27 AM
Why is that ridiculous?
He will do whatever works for the story. Scott is a filmmaker, he doesn't make fan films.
I'm not talking about fans, I'm talking about the fact David made the Alien from Shaw. If he were to make a Queen it would make sense that he make it from Daniels (also conveniently ending her story line). Perhaps the fact Shaw could not give birth ( and Daniels can?) could be part of the reason why his initial effort was just the Alien and a future effort could be the Queen.
I'm just throwing out ideas. He's already said the movie is going to be about David, so what's Dave going to be doing exactly in this movie?
Daniels is fertile so turn her into baby making machine? I don't mind that idea, reminds me of Species 2, with more psycho-sexual elements.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/speciesfilms/images/0/0d/Tumblr_nke62zLMbf1rp0vkjo1_400.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160216012008)
What I am trying to say is that Ridley Scott will do what is best for the story, he won't include the queen because it was in Aliens or to appease fanboys.
Egg morphing is superior, though.
Quote from: kwisatz on Jan 12, 2018, 10:56:00 PM
i just don't like AC much.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Flist%2F000%2F091%2F521%2FG.F.Y.C.png&hash=95f78f1ab5305c07e1cfc6174fd719c5a8e09d80)
Scott wants to make movies that people watch. If everyone tells him that they want the Queen, he'd add the Queen. It's the same with the Big Chap; he thought it was cooked, saw that audiences still wanted it, added it in.
"If everyone tells him they want the Queen" - you mean the studio execs who were worried that a straight sequel to Prometheus wouldn't do well. Of course he has to sell his movie, but he's not going to compromise his artistic vision just because a few fanboys whine on the internet.
And yet that's exactly what he said he did for Covenant, responding to Twitter feedback.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jan 12, 2018, 10:51:17 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 11, 2018, 12:52:51 AM
Oh. Well that's different. Thanks for that.
Anyway, it didn't make it into the final film so he justifiably had carte Blanche in this regard. Anyway, he made the right call which resulted in a sequel that overshadowed its predecessor in many ways.
Scott's story of the origins of the aliens makes this a moot point now. The aliens can come from whichever way that works for the story almost. That doesn't make it good, but it is moot.
Long live the queen..
Cameron could have made the queen more of a xeno in the next development stage that acted as a leader or defender of the hive instead of her being the source of the eggs.
That way he could have kept the showdown and eggmorphing would still have been the main way of reproduction for the species.
Cameron didn't want eggmorphing though, and since the vast bulk of the audience didn't know it was even a thing - he wasn't obliged to include it.
As much as I love the queen I would say no if Ridley Scott is behind it. He would f**k the queen up and make her into a heel for David to one up her.
I don't hate Cameron's Queen, but I want another kind of female Monster (Eggmorphing too).
(https://i.imgur.com/HJLNgiJ.gif)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/ev-shipard-shawbiomechanoid-v02.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/19030603_1467102216673528_4020740980066526276_n.jpg)
That looks cool, but it would be too similar to Sil from Species. They scrapped the original Newborn design because of this.
Sil is the perfect biomechanical monster but on the feminine side, designed by Giger himself. You can't do better than such an iconic design.
You cannot have the queen looks like Sil.
(Sil is the true alien queen, though)
Quote from: SiL on Jan 13, 2018, 03:08:32 AM
And yet that's exactly what he said he did for Covenant, responding to Twitter feedback.
You think Sir Scott gets on social media and reads fan feedback? lol, he doesn't give a shit. The studio made him include the alien. He was joking about the social media.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 13, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
That looks cool, but it would be too similar to Sil from Species. They scrapped the original Newborn design because of this.
Sil is the perfect biomechanical monster but on the feminine side, designed by Giger himself. You can't do better than such an iconic design.
You cannot have the queen looks like Sil.
(Sil is the true alien queen, though)
Quote from: SiL on Jan 13, 2018, 03:08:32 AM
And yet that's exactly what he said he did for Covenant, responding to Twitter feedback.
You think Sir Scott gets on social media and reads fan feedback? lol, he doesn't give a shit. The studio made him include the alien. He was joking about the social media.
You think Scott gets to make all the decisions...?
We know this isn't right.
Crazy Shrimp, what is the source of your 2nd image? Very curious...
TC
Quote from: Highland on Jan 13, 2018, 07:10:26 AM
You think Scott gets to make all the decisions...?
We know this isn't right.
What are you smoking, I want some. It's the studio's money. Money is god. Those who have the gold, make the rules.
Quote from: TC on Jan 13, 2018, 07:52:46 AM
Crazy Shrimp, what is the source of your 2nd image? Very curious...
TC
AVP Galaxy galery
Alien Covenant concept art (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=368&page=5)
But the concept art was made by Ev Shipard
Alien Covenant : David's Lab (https://www.artstation.com/artwork/02XPV)
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 13, 2018, 07:56:54 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 13, 2018, 07:10:26 AM
You think Scott gets to make all the decisions...?
We know this isn't right.
What are you smoking, I want some. It's the studio's money. Money is god. Those who have the gold, make the rules.
Exactly, so this whole " Scott does what he wants" thing you've got going on isn't correct.
At least it's not as bad as whatever happened behind the doors on The Last Jedi mind you, talk about truly ruining something. Makes Covenant look like a masterpiece.
Quote from: genocyber on Jan 13, 2018, 03:36:25 AM
As much as I love the queen I would say no if Ridley Scott is behind it. He would f**k the queen up and make her into a heel for David to one up her.
I hold entirely the opposite view on that - dislike the queen and the whole idea behind it, but if some version of it were to appear in order to rationalise why some aliens are just big insects I'd be interested to see how Scott would approach it. It might even win me over - tough call though.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 13, 2018, 08:37:52 AM
Exactly, so this whole " Scott does what he wants" thing you've got going on isn't correct.
I don't have that going on.
QuoteAt least it's not as bad as whatever happened behind the doors on The Last Jedi mind you, talk about truly ruining something. Makes Covenant look like a masterpiece.
Covenant is a masterpiece.
Quote from: SM on Jan 13, 2018, 03:17:20 AM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Jan 12, 2018, 10:51:17 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 11, 2018, 12:52:51 AM
Oh. Well that's different. Thanks for that.
Anyway, it didn't make it into the final film so he justifiably had carte Blanche in this regard. Anyway, he made the right call which resulted in a sequel that overshadowed its predecessor in many ways.
Scott's story of the origins of the aliens makes this a moot point now. The aliens can come from whichever way that works for the story almost. That doesn't make it good, but it is moot.
Long live the queen..
Cameron could have made the queen more of a xeno in the next development stage that acted as a leader or defender of the hive instead of her being the source of the eggs.
That way he could have kept the showdown and eggmorphing would still have been the main way of reproduction for the species.
Cameron didn't want eggmorphing though, and since the vast bulk of the audience didn't know it was even a thing - he wasn't obliged to include it.
If my memory is accurate, the queen wasn't in the treatment for Aliens, while most other aspects of the movie were mostly the same in it (including characters, places and the plot).
Wonder why Cameron invented the queen as the source of the eggs, as he apparently was aware of egg morphing, and as can be seen by the treatment the movie would have been mostly the same without the queen?
Maybe he wanted a boss battle as the climax? Queen vs Power Loader...
"Get away from her you bitch" is probably the most memorable quote in the entire series. The fight with the queen is arguable the second most famous moment in the series right after the first chest burster. Yes, let's get rid of the queen... ::)
No need for getting rid of the queen, but the concept for her could and should have been changed for how the aliens or she created the eggs.
Let's imagine what could have been if the big chap was a young queen and egg morphing was the way queens create eggs instead of simply laying them...
That would have also been an easy way to explain the design differences of the aliens in the first and second movie.
Would have been way better than the unimaginative and unneccesary retcon we got imo!
The answer is simply Cameron didn't like eggmorphing and wanted a big showdown between Ripley and the Queen.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 13, 2018, 04:45:32 PM
"Get away from her you bitch" is probably the most memorable quote in the entire series.
Yeah, because of how silly it is.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 13, 2018, 10:36:59 PM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 13, 2018, 04:45:32 PM
"Get away from her you bitch" is probably the most memorable quote in the entire series.
Yeah, because of how silly it is.
It's a great line for soccer moms.
You guys are trying waaaaay too hard.
Scorpio and his endless hateboner for Aliens.
I don't hate Aliens, I just don't think it's above criticism, unlike the attitude displayed to the prequels on these boards.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 14, 2018, 12:18:38 AM
I don't hate Aliens, I just don't think it's above criticism, unlike the attitude displayed to the prequels on these boards.
I don't think that many people hate it, they just don't like it. I mean it's not a bad film, it's well made has some good set pieces.
People hate that movie I like, so I'm going to hate that movie they like.
ye gods...
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 02:11:57 AM
People hate that movie I like, so I'm going to hate that movie they like.
ye gods...
It's kind of strange do do it in your own back yard with such a well established classic. The movies are not even alike.
There's no hating, at least from me. Now if you can't handle a little criticism of your favourite movie, I suggest growing a pair.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 14, 2018, 06:50:09 AM
There's no hating, at least from me. Now if you can't handle a little criticism of your favourite movie, I suggest growing a pair.
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2lcqiEmj71qcqtduo1_500.gif)
No hate - just petty criticisms and nitpickery at every opportunity in a vain attempt to deflect.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 14, 2018, 08:57:37 AMhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2lcqiEmj71qcqtduo1_500.gif
That is horny as f**k.
The queen fits and egg-morphing fits. One doesn't preclude the other. Covenant shows a veritable menagerie of biological influences that ended up (ostensibly) contributing to the Alien. If anything, with all the bugs David has in his laboratory, the queen makes the most sense.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jan 14, 2018, 11:09:42 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 14, 2018, 08:57:37 AMhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2lcqiEmj71qcqtduo1_500.gif
That is horny as f**k.
The queen fits and egg-morphing fits. One doesn't preclude the other. Covenant shows a veritable menagerie of biological influences that ended up (ostensibly) contributing to the Alien. If anything, with all the bugs David has in his laboratory, the queen makes the most sense.
Exactly. Turns out all the Aliens that acted like bugs in Aliens.....came from bugs. Soccer moms rejoice.
Even obannon though wanted it to be just a regular ol creature, it wasn't supposed to be invincible with armour plates and the perfect organism, it was just another animal.
O'Bannon wins in the end... though he may not of loved the idea that it was a regular ol creature created by a robot from the distribution of a virus that was developed by humanoid aliens that created humans who then created robots. Dan never was big on robots.
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yeah we know, you'd just let your mate die and you like seeing kids ripped in half. You get a pass.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 14, 2018, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yeah we know, you'd just let your mate die and you like seeing kids ripped in half. You get a pass.
I sure as hell wouldn't endanger myself and everybody else on the ship as the
captain.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
This is not a flaw of the film though, it's a character flaw. There's a huge difference. That whole scene is set to introduce you Ripley, Dallas, Lambert and Ash via action. Dallas and Lambert toss the quarantine protocol out of the window because Lambert's a coward and Dallas doesn't care much about the official rules; Ripley maintains the protocol because she does care about the rules and does not fold under pressure; Ash disregards Ripley's command and opens the airlock because he has ulterior motives yet to be revealed. Not only do all of those characters present plausible behaviors under similar circumstances, but the scene is perfectly used to provide information about the characters to the viewer in the middle of an important narrative moment. Some of that information also comes back and plays a role later on (Lambert's cowardice, Ash's motives).
This is all, by the way, putting aside the fact that the crew does make the right decision by not letting Dallas and friends on board up until Ash disobeys the order.
Covenant can only dream of having such a cleverly subtle script. I've been visiting this forum for 6 months now and have yet to see someone manage to describe the film's characters. Hell, I've seen people who love the film that can't even agree on who the protagonist of the film is supposed to be. Every decision the characters make during the film is the wrong decision, with some of them being comically wrong, all the while giving the audience no information about the characters.
Comparing Covenant to Alien is like comparing The Room to Citizen Kane; It's awesome to see Tommy Wiseau wreck a room in the end, but it's the worst kind of awesome you can have.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Please read Paranoid Android's comment above yours.
It pretty much supports tleilaxu's argument.
Beyond that, I don't think that Dallas' decision is the most irrational one in "Alien".
- That belongs to Ash, even with the special order.
* Ash allowing Kane (with a fast growing 1 foot [1/3 meter] parasite inside him) to eat with the crew was absurd;
1. In terms of controlling the spread of the infection;
2. To reduce the danger to the crew where (who are flying the ship);
3. Getting the ship to earth which is improved by keeping the crew alive;
4. Maximize the chances in getting the creature back to earth which was the main purpose of SO 937.
I have film theories about Ash's xenomorph worship which justifies what he does.
- But in terms of the behavior of an Alien movie science officer imo, it is probably the most irrational decision by such a character in the franchise.
** Now is "Alien" a great science fiction film? Yes. It's #10 on my all time SF list.
But I keep in mind (and several people I've discussed this with have sometimes admitted), the creature needed to get loose in order for the movie to work.
For the purposes of the story, Ash needed to let Kane eat with the crew to have the iconic chestburster scene. (And not put Kane immediately into stasis to prevent this.)
I accept that this is what was needed for this kind of story.
;)
Quote from: bb-15 on Jan 14, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Please read Paranoid Android's comment above yours.
It pretty much supports tleilaxu's argument.
Huh?
No, my post goes against tleilaxu's argument. I'm totally with SM on this. The film paints Dallas' action in that scene as a character flaw. That doesn't make the film flawed.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 14, 2018, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: bb-15 on Jan 14, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Please read Paranoid Android's comment above yours.
It pretty much supports tleilaxu's argument.
Huh?
No, my post goes against tleilaxu's argument. I'm totally with SM on this. The film paints Dallas' action in that scene as a character flaw. That doesn't make the film flawed.
His point is that you do all this ad-hoc rationalization to avoid admitting the film has flaws.
Why would I avoid admitting that Alien has flaws? It has flaws. There was an old thread where bb-15 pointed out that Brett going off on his own to die was a flaw, and I agree with that.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 14, 2018, 03:31:46 PM
Covenant can only dream of having such a cleverly subtle script. I've been visiting this forum for 6 months now and have yet to see someone manage to describe the film's characters. Hell, I've seen people who love the film that can't even agree on who the protagonist of the film is supposed to be.
I can describe the characters for you.
It's also pretty obvious who the protagonist is.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 14, 2018, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: bb-15 on Jan 14, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Please read Paranoid Android's comment above yours.
It pretty much supports tleilaxu's argument.
Huh?
No, my post goes against tleilaxu's argument. I'm totally with SM on this. The film paints Dallas' action in that scene as a character flaw. That doesn't make the film flawed.
His point is that you do all this ad-hoc rationalization to avoid admitting the film has flaws.
When? Or is this an ad-hoc generalization?
Dallas was mistaken to order Ripley open the airlock. The very fact Ripley won't open it and tells him why shows Dallas is mistaken. Ripley is undermined by Ash for reasons detailed later on. It's not a flaw in the film.
Something like Ripley saying 'We all have to stick together' then Lambert, Ash and Parker going off in separate directions alone arguably is a flaw. Kane not being a bit more cautious approaching an alien lifeform could also be considered a flaw.
It's hilarious how people think characters in a film doing "dumb" shit means the film is "flawed."
I mean, Gorman was clearly an idiot in Aliens; thus that film is flawed, correct? Or why was there nobody left on the Sulaco when they went down to the planet? Clearly, the film is flawed.
People throw around the word flawed so casually on youtube and forums like it's some sort of catch-all argument; however, fandom isn't known for rationality, nor objectivity.
People doing dumb things that aren't addressed could be considered flaws. Examples like Dallas and Gorman doing dumb things aren't handwaved though.
I dunno if Kane's is a flaw. He is shown to be eager about exploring the Derelict early on, even volunteering to go out. I think him sticking his face in the egg is fitting for the character he was.
I think sometimes, though, characters in film are unnaturally analysed. You have to give some leeway because people are people; not everything about how people behave has to be perfectly executed, systematic or calculated. People are flawed to begin with.
Indeed you need to look at the wider context of the situation the characters are in and how they've been presented up to that point. Kane is the intrepid adventurer, but you could look in an egg without practically sticking your face in it, so I can see why people might question it. Net result would've been the same though, so it's kinda moot.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 10:25:26 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 14, 2018, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: bb-15 on Jan 14, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 14, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
It's actually pretty funny how people sperg out when you criticize Alien and Aliens even with just a fraction of the same nitpicking level that people criticize Covenant with. Of course the old movies are literally flawless and perfect right? Like when Dallas, the captain of the ship, insists on having a crew-member infected with an alien life-form that could potentially kill them all brought into the ship it is NOT stupid, it's "a human and rational decision taken by a man wanting to save his friend" or something :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Who argues that Dallas wasn't mistaken to do that?
Please read Paranoid Android's comment above yours.
It pretty much supports tleilaxu's argument.
Huh?
No, my post goes against tleilaxu's argument. I'm totally with SM on this. The film paints Dallas' action in that scene as a character flaw. That doesn't make the film flawed.
His point is that you do all this ad-hoc rationalization to avoid admitting the film has flaws.
When? Or is this an ad-hoc generalization?
Dallas was mistaken to order Ripley open the airlock. The very fact Ripley won't open it and tells him why shows Dallas is mistaken. Ripley is undermined by Ash for reasons detailed later on. It's not a flaw in the film.
Something like Ripley saying 'We all have to stick together' then Lambert, Ash and Parker going off in separate directions alone arguably is a flaw. Kane not being a bit more cautious approaching an alien lifeform could also be considered a flaw.
It's a flaw because it's not realistic that the campaign of the ship would behave in such a reckless manner. That being said, of course they needed some way to make the plot move forward and this was it. I don't hold films accountable for every stupid plot mechanic. It's just funny to see how when we apply some of the same criticisms that Covenant haters apply to Covenant to the old movies, people start desperately rationalizing and pretending there's nothing wrong. I can enjoy a movie that has flaws if the overall product is great, and Alien and Covenant certainly are overall great.
Quote from: Alionic on Jan 14, 2018, 11:29:32 PM
It's hilarious how people think characters in a film doing "dumb" shit means the film is "flawed."
I mean, Gorman was clearly an idiot in Aliens; thus that film is flawed, correct? Or why was there nobody left on the Sulaco when they went down to the planet? Clearly, the film is flawed.
People throw around the word flawed so casually on youtube and forums like it's some sort of catch-all argument; however, fandom isn't known for rationality, nor objectivity.
Gorman is presented as an idiot that's the difference. So when he does idiotic things it's not out of character. Nobody left on the Sulaco is decent though, I'll give you that.
QuoteIt's a flaw because it's not realistic that the captain of the ship would behave in such a reckless manner
It's hardly reckless since the booth does get sanitised (from memory) and they have high end medical equipment on board. Plus the Planet is rough/unstable ( he could lose the whole lot).
It is reckless for captain to want to break quarantine - but it's in character for Dallas.
I get that Gorman is inexperienced, but the marines were badly prepared. No quarantine, no helmets, poor planning. They don't act like marines, they act like children. And people are fine with this.
You can excuse Gorman that maybe WY assigned him to the mission deliberately, but that doesn't excuse the marines behaviour. These are supposed to be professional soldiers in the future, but they act nothing like it.
I can excuse the Covenant crew because they just had a Security Team, which means bare minimum of training for any kind of combat or hostile situation.
Character flaw or film flaw?
I think the test is whether the character's behavior is self-contradictory or not.
Kane sticking his face over the gaping egg is set-up by presenting him earlier in the film as adventurous (he's very keen to be part of the ground mission in a dangerous environment) to the point of being foolhardy. You would describe this as a film flaw if you think the writer did not set up this character trait firmly enough.
Oram seems quite rational though (if maybe a bit insecure and paranoid). But when David's behavior is so bizarre (protecting the neomorph) that Oram is forced to point a gun at him, and then a scene later he trusts David's word about the eggs that there's "something to see" and nothing to be afraid of - well, that seems contradictory.
OTOH, let's not confuse self-contradictory behavior with character development. Gorman is clearly unfit as for command, but redeems himself when he goes back for Vasquez. Clearly, in the course of the film's events, he learned something about what it takes to be a leader.
TC
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 15, 2018, 01:04:54 AM
I get that Gorman is inexperienced, but the marines were badly prepared. No quarantine, no helmets, poor planning. They don't act like marines, they act like children. And people are fine with this.
You can excuse Gorman that maybe WY assigned him to the mission deliberately, but that doesn't excuse the marines behaviour. These are supposed to be professional soldiers in the future, but they act nothing like it.
I can excuse the Covenant crew because they just had a Security Team, which means bare minimum of training for any kind of combat or hostile situation.
I think it was in his commentary, but Cameron himself has admitted that the Marines would in real life act more disciplined than what they are in the film, or something along those lines. But the simple answer is that the Marines, regardless of technicalities, are written well and people enjoy them, while the security team in Covenant are just red shirts that no one can even remember their names.
Yeah Cameron wrote the marines like Vietnam army draftees if memory serves.
Character flaw or film flaw?
Here's another example that's interesting because it shows how well Cameron understands character writing (at least in Aliens: other films - like Titanic - debatable :-[ ).
Hudson is established as a juvenile coward. He goes over-the-top-nutso with his bragging about the marine's firepower in the APC/dropship when they're about to launch.
But he heroically redeems himself in the Hadley's Hope "Alamo" scene in Operations.
This seems contradictory, but look at how Cameron does it: he uses one character flaw (Hudson has no self-control and is easily carried away when fired up on adrenaline) to overcome another (his cowardice).
The other thing (imo) is that Cameron's instincts as a storyteller told him it was a good idea to break the rules in this case. He felt audiences would like Hudson (despite his juvenile behaviour), and would love to see him go down in a blaze of glory.
He was right.
TC
Quote from: SM on Jan 15, 2018, 03:48:42 AM
Yeah Cameron wrote the marines like Vietnam army draftees if memory serves.
If I remember correctly, Cameron said while commenting on the marines in Aliens that in hind-sight he misrepresented them as marines. He admitted that their behavior was somewhat insulting to marine characteristics..
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 15, 2018, 01:04:54 AM
I get that Gorman is inexperienced, but the marines were badly prepared. No quarantine, no helmets, poor planning. They don't act like marines, they act like children. And people are fine with this.
You can excuse Gorman that maybe WY assigned him to the mission deliberately, but that doesn't excuse the marines behaviour. These are supposed to be professional soldiers in the future, but they act nothing like it.
I can excuse the Covenant crew because they just had a Security Team, which means bare minimum of training for any kind of combat or hostile situation.
The marines' behavior is a stereotype, I'll admit that. I've met marines who love to jack off about how cool they are for being marines, so maybe it's not unprecedented.
However, I can see why they didn't take the situation seriously because as far as anyone knew all that was wrong was a f**ked up beacon. Of course they didn't believe Ripley's story about chest-bursting space monsters, who would?
Quarantine for what? Downed comms?
They had helmets, so I'm not sure what you mean.
They weren't trained for fighting Xenomorphs and when they collapsed it made sense.
Hicks believed her.
Quote from: Deathbearer on Jan 15, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
However, I can see why they didn't take the situation seriously because as far as anyone knew all that was wrong was a f**ked up beacon. Of course they didn't believe Ripley's story about chest-bursting space monsters, who would?
Whether they believe or not doesn't matter. They had the intel, so they should have been better prepared.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 16, 2018, 12:37:05 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Jan 15, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
However, I can see why they didn't take the situation seriously because as far as anyone knew all that was wrong was a f**ked up beacon. Of course they didn't believe Ripley's story about chest-bursting space monsters, who would?
Whether they believe or not doesn't matter. They had the intel, so they should have been better prepared.
They didn't know what the creature was and they thought the hostages were possibly alive. They could have been better prepared for the reactor though
Sure, why not? It's already been introduced in Aliens.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 16, 2018, 12:37:05 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Jan 15, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
However, I can see why they didn't take the situation seriously because as far as anyone knew all that was wrong was a f**ked up beacon. Of course they didn't believe Ripley's story about chest-bursting space monsters, who would?
Whether they believe or not doesn't matter. They had the intel, so they should have been better prepared.
The difference also being that by-and-large that unpreparedness wasn't used to propel the story forward. Over-confidence, yes, but it wasn't a lack of helmets leading to them being infected or that they didn't have good enough weaponry or whatever.
They were also on what was by that time a human colony. They weren't knowingly bumbling into alien environment.
OK, I feel the need to make a contribution to this thread that's back on topic... ;D
It would be interesting, but not vital, for Scott to introduce an Alien Queen into the next story. Interesting, only because I think he would have some unique spin on the concept, not because I want to see the entire franchise linked up, storywise.
As for the egg-morphing vs Queen issue: it's been pointed out that a bit of elaboration of the life cycle can make an allowance for both. That suits me fine but if Scott wants to ignore the Queen idea entirely as though Cameron's Aliens story will never exist, that's OK with me too. That's because I've always seen the films in the franchise as being "alternate universe" contributions from each director anyway.
For the same reason, I don't care if "Covenant 2" (or whatever it's called) paves the way for the Alien 1979 movie to take place. The '79 film will always exist in my mind as its own unique and self-contained movie. It works beautifully that way (especially the special cut with the alien-nest scene restored), and the prequels already have a very different style than the one established in the Scott/O'Bannon/Shusett/Giger original. (I guess that's only to be expected given the decades of directing Scott did in the intervening years, and so too, his development as an artist,)
It's been said countless times before, but Alien 1979 is modelled on an unpretentious B-movie paradigm (and proudly so, might I add); Prometheus and Covenant are not. Collectively, to me, they will never feel like chapters in the same book. Not like Star Wars films, or Harry Potter films, Hunger Games, etc.
TC
Yeah,.... no.
I think if Scott's next Alien instalment blatantly disregards Alien or fails to connect with it, that will be the death knell of the series.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 16, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
Yeah,.... no.
I think if Scott's next Alien instalment blatantly disregards Alien or fails to connect with it, that will be the death knell of the series.
Perhaps, but as long as it gets made, if it ends there, no problem.
I for one hope hope that the Covenant sequel strays further away from the original series, so they'd end up be two different universes (David, Alien), they really don't gel as it is. No queen in the prequels please!
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 16, 2018, 12:36:31 PM
Yeah,.... no.
I think if Scott's next Alien instalment blatantly disregards Alien or fails to connect with it, that will be the death knell of the series.
Death knell for the prequels perhaps yes, a new door for the Alien franchise.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 16, 2018, 12:47:50 AM
They didn't know what the creature was
They were briefed by Ripley.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 16, 2018, 09:08:23 AM
The difference also being that by-and-large that unpreparedness wasn't used to propel the story forward. Over-confidence, yes, but it wasn't a lack of helmets leading to them being infected or that they didn't have good enough weaponry or whatever.
Their unpreparedness caused the situation in the first place. Leaving the dropship unsecured and unguarded. Using infra-red when they didn't even know if they could see them in infra-red. Not bringing the right weapons or equipment (Ripley told them about the acid blood, and they did nothing). Sealing everything else but not bothering to check the ceiling. The list goes on.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jan 16, 2018, 09:29:35 AM
They were also on what was by that time a human colony. They weren't knowingly bumbling into alien environment.
It's an alien life form. They could introduce disease.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 17, 2018, 07:14:29 AM
Their unpreparedness caused the situation in the first place. Leaving the dropship unsecured and unguarded. Using infra-red when they didn't even know if they could see them in infra-red. Not bringing the right weapons or equipment (Ripley told them about the acid blood, and they did nothing). Sealing everything else but not bothering to check the ceiling. The list goes on.
The securing of the dropship I'll grant you and wasn't something I'd particularly ever thought about. But then you do have Spunkmeyer knocking around somewhere and Ferro is in the cock-pit and we know the Aliens are stealthy at times. I do disagree with them not bringing the right weaponry or equipment.
Every single weapon we see them use has some effect (the Veep maybe not) and they did bring detection gear. It's not their fault the Alien didn't show up on infared, but they brought some. The motion tracker obviously works too.
In regards to the acid blood...not sure there's anything demonstrated in any of the Alien films that is resistant to it. They're still wearing armour and taking that extra protective step. The ceiling...yeah, could give you that one too but it is justified within the film and feels more like a stretch to find flaws.
Gorman declared the colony secured, and they sent their dropship back to said secured location.
Which is dumb, but that's the point -- Gorman doesn't know what the f**k he's doing.
WE'RE IN THE PIPE
FIVE BY FIVE
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/4/45/Ferro_during_drop.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140804012155)
Ferro and Spunkmeyer weren't guarding the dropship. Ferro is a pilot, she only had a sidearm. Same with Spunkmeyer. They left the dropship unsecure, which was their only means of escape at that point. Spunkmeyer was knocking around somewhere - exactly, incompetent, he should have been protecting the ship. They even left the ramp wide open.
If you want to talk about motion tracker, it is what it is. It only detects motion. Which resulted in a marine getting ambushed. They were practically blind going into the hive.
As for the acid blood - their protective armour did not consist of much, and offered limited protection. If it can burn through 3 decks of the Nostromo, their armour is practically useless.
So you have a lot of stupid character decisions in Aliens.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 17, 2018, 12:02:20 PM
If you want to talk about motion tracker, it is what it is. It only detects motion. Which resulted in a marine getting ambushed. They were practically blind going into the hive.
You're really grasping at straws on this one. They had the layout of the processor, the position of the colonists, IR cameras and motion sensors. What the hell more did you think they should have?
QuoteAs for the acid blood - their protective armour did not consist of much, and offered limited protection.
You've just described modern armour. That's not a character flaw or even a film flaw, that's just the reality of personal protective gear in a combat environment.
Just because you know a .50 cal round will go through your helmet and kill you in a warzone doesn't make you an idiot for wearing it.
The marines in Aliens were sent to a friendly colony to deal with a busted transmitter. The alien angle was a "just in case" theory delivered to them by a person undergoing regular therapy sessions. I think someone needs to remind the people who criticize the marines' "unpreparedness" of that fact, because I'm starting to suspect they never actually watched the film.
If said people were fair with their criticism and not just looking for ways to bring a good film all the way down to Covenant's level, they would have been criticizing the marines' overpreparedness, if anything. The whole part of the marines going from cover to cover as they approach the colony door is not how someone would act when arriving to deal with a busted transmitter, both because you are not expecting to be attacked, and because you're entering a civilian facility with weapons drawn, which is a guaranteed way to get a civilian killed in almost every scenario that isn't the one specific scenario featured in the film.
A realistic approach would've been just having a team of about 4 marines landing and peacefully approaching the facility, and only calling in the rest to do the Gung-Ho stuff after opening the doors and seeing the internal damage to the structure. I do personally give the film a pass for that though because the way it was handled, while not being the most realistic, works better cinematically, as your main goal is to engage the audience with the things happening on screen. It's more important to get across what the marines are about, rather than being as realistic as possible.
It's similar in a way to the whole premise of Terminator: Skynet is sending a cyborg back in time that is supposed to blend in the crowd, so they design that cyborg in the form of an Austrian bodybuilder, and that cyborg, while being impervious to the weapons of the time, is arming itself to the teeth to kill a waitress...Not the most realistic portrayal, but it works cinematically; Arnold looks menacing, which is the main feature you want to get across about your antagonist. Having someone like Lance Henriksen play the terminator might have been more realistic, but would've made the film less interesting.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 17, 2018, 12:02:20 PM
Ferro and Spunkmeyer weren't guarding the dropship. Ferro is a pilot, she only had a sidearm. Same with Spunkmeyer. They left the dropship unsecure, which was their only means of escape at that point. Spunkmeyer was knocking around somewhere - exactly, incompetent, he should have been protecting the ship. They even left the ramp wide open.
I never said they were guarding it. They were around. As SiL mentioned, as far as they were concerned the area was declared secure by their purposefully inept leader who goes through a purposeful arc of redemption.
QuoteIf you want to talk about motion tracker, it is what it is. It only detects motion. Which resulted in a marine getting ambushed. They were practically blind going into the hive.
Not really. They had floor plans (which granted may not have had ceiling space) and their positions monitored by their commander. The motion tracker gives bearing and distance so they're not exactly blind.
QuoteAs for the acid blood - their protective armour did not consist of much, and offered limited protection. If it can burn through 3 decks of the Nostromo, their armour is practically useless.
The solution then being that they go in with 3 levels worth of spaceship deck plating strapped to them instead? You're really over-reaching here.
I don't know how anyone can fit in a pipe that's 5 by 5.
Ah! But the unit of measurement was not specified!
I thought the film adequately addressed the marines' overconfidence from the start. "There's nothing they can't handle" was no doubt the prevalent attitude about their military power, despite the ravings of some ancient schizophrenic dockworker.
It was. But evidently it's becoming a defence of some Covenant fans.
That must try your patience.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 17, 2018, 01:04:14 PM
I don't know how anyone can fit in a pipe that's 5 by 5.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 17, 2018, 01:23:36 PM
Ah! But the unit of measurement was not specified!
Apologies to the more experienced dedicated Aliens fans who I'm sure obviously already knew this, but sometimes we more experienced fans need to educate the casual fans..........
It has nothing to do physical measurements.
"in the pipe" is from the English idiom that means "in the process" or "somewhere in a process or pathway." In short, under way or in process.
"Five by five" is a standard radio telecommunications expression, and also heavily transplanted into non-radio usage. It means the best readability (the first "five") and signal strength (the second "five"). So five by five is basically the best -- "loud and clear."
Just for clarities sake, Gash and I were joking... :P
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 17, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
Just for clarities sake, Gash and I were joking... :P
Obviously.
And I stand by my belief there's absolutely nothing wrong at all being a casual fan.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 16, 2018, 09:08:23 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 16, 2018, 12:37:05 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Jan 15, 2018, 11:28:59 PM
However, I can see why they didn't take the situation seriously because as far as anyone knew all that was wrong was a f**ked up beacon. Of course they didn't believe Ripley's story about chest-bursting space monsters, who would?
Whether they believe or not doesn't matter. They had the intel, so they should have been better prepared.
The difference also being that by-and-large that unpreparedness wasn't used to propel the story forward. Over-confidence, yes, but it wasn't a lack of helmets leading to them being infected or that they didn't have good enough weaponry or whatever.
My POV (which can be ignored of course) with caveats;
- I have little interest in picking sides and getting into my film vs your film arguments.
* My view here begins with; since this is science fiction (SF) and human characters, I'll apply some science/historical/genre facts to the famous "helmet" issue.
1. Airborne disease not only exists in our world but the concept of airborne disease and space aliens was introduced in 1897 by the novel "War of the Worlds".
- But the novel presented a fantasy trope into SF that humans don't get airborne sickness from aliens.
* Of course logically that idea as a theory would be absurd but the reason alien airborne disease is not in many story SF arcs is because it fills many practical film needs;
- The human heroes need to win and airborne disease from bad guy aliens would make that harder;
- Suits/helmets are difficult to film which adds to costs;
- It's hard to make invisible viruses visually exciting.
2. Result; In popular SF films usually almost no precautions are taken against unknown alien airborne disease.
- Multiple films have this issue of not even mentioning the possibility of an airborne alien disease threat from; 2001, Close Encounters and so on.
- In the Alien franchise "Alien" at least gives lip service to the idea of quarantine but after Kane gets on the ship, the idea of airborne disease precautions is discarded.
With "Aliens" there is an unknown Alien Queen who potentially could be an airborne disease vector but the idea is ignored in the movie.
- This is not a criticism. It is just bringing up some facts.
* Now to the Alien prequels;
- Ridley Scott slowly began to bring together alien airborne disease and the typical weak SF movie precautions against that.
- In "Prometheus" like in "Alien", the concept of airborne disease is presented. And Scott has characters who test the air and David (for Weyland) eventually says that the air is safe.
- With "Covenant" Scott has a ship which looks at the atmosphere and crew members on the ground who had atmosphere instruments.
But Scott adds a bio weapon (which exist in our world) created by the Engineers. And the crew misses a part of that weapon, airborne fungus spores.
At the same time the crew follows the standard SF precautions trope when encountering unknown aliens; they check some instruments and then if the air is breathable, the characters do not use helmets.
* I don't care if people dislike "Covenant" or if they believe that "Covenant" should be the only SF movie where characters take strict precautions against airborne disease from unknown space aliens.
- My argument however, has little to do with "Covenant" but rather is based on SF movie tropes as I explained.
;)
I find the whole helmet issue irrelevant. Some service is giving to checking atmosphere in Prometheus and Covenant and that is more than most films bother to do.
Quote- In the Alien franchise "Alien" at least gives lip service to the idea of quarantine but after Kane gets on the ship, the idea of airborne disease precautions is discarded.
It's not discarded. Ripley brings it up again to Ash. And in the DC Ripley and Dallas continue to argue. By which point it's all moot anyway.
The quarantine issue:
I can forgive Alien since Ash had his own agenda.
Aliens - not one attempt made at quarantine, even though they were briefed about the situation.
Alien 3 - that's why they cremated the bodies for the potential outbreak of disease, even if Ripley was lying, so even Alien 3 followed quarantine properly. Of course they couldn't do anything about the alien once it was loose.
Alien Resurrection - again, proper quarantine. The aliens were sealed off from the rest of ship, as were the eggs. They didn't even take chances extracting the embryo.
Prometheus - they took their helmets off, yes, but this is before they knew about any alien life forms. Holloway being an idiot. But the issue was still brought up.
Alien Covenant - I agree, it is fairly inexcusable not to wear helmets, and the quarantine was fairly lacklustre, but at least they attempted quarantine procedures, even if they bungled it up.
In Aliens Burke is attempting to harvest embryos from New and Ripley, and she mentions ICC quarantine when he brings up getting it back, so there was a would-be quarantine attempt by Ripley. Notwithstanding the "take off and nuke the entire site from orbit" remark, which while isn't quarantine is probably more effective.
Quarantine would be standard when they get home after exposure to an alien lifeform as Dallas says in Alien.
Has there not been sloppy quarantine protocols in our real world history, even recent history? Those remote isolated tribes, even into the twentieth century, had sudden mass die offs for a reason.
And there's a good reason members of the Atomic Scientists' and Security Board added Life Sciences to the Doomsday Clock. When it comes to securing our exploration of science, we humans are a bit on the sloppy side.
QuoteAliens - not one attempt made at quarantine, even though they were briefed about the situation.
They say in the film that they'll be quarantined on return. What other quarantine could they have done before then?
If that's the case then why didn't Ripley in Alien think "screw quarantine, we'll be quarantined back at home base". There's the question of personal safety. It's obvious they would be quarantined when/if they made it back, but that doesn't help them in their situation, does it? If they were to become infected, or was that a hidden clause in their contract that they did not know about?
It's explained in the film.
They've all been exposed, so would all have to go into quarantine. If they'd left Kane outside, only Kane would have to be quarantined.
Yes I am aware of that. The issue is why they made no attempt to quarantine in Aliens for their own safety.
In Alien, Ripley attempted a quarantine by sealing Kane and the others in the airlock so that they would not infect the rest of the crew.
In Aliens there was nothing, you even had Bishop working on a dead facehugger and nobody wore surgical masks or protective gear.
Ripley hadn't gotten sick from the Alien in the first film so why did they need to wear masks? There was no contagion threat from the Aliens.
That is woolly thinking. Just because they didn't get sick, doesn't mean there is no threat.
There is definitely a threat - just not from a contagion.
How would they know? Just because nobody got sick the first time?
Précisément.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 01:58:55 AMIn Aliens there was nothing, you even had Bishop working on a dead facehugger and nobody wore surgical masks or protective gear.
Bishop had access to all of the research on the huggers from the colony lab. They weren't preserved in stasis tubes for shits and giggles; there was obviously a lot of study undertaken before the outbreak, and surely one of the first things that the colony doctors would of checked for is a potential contagion. Bishop would of known pretty quickly whether it was a risk to open one up or not.
And on top of that:
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 01:58:55 AM
In Aliens there was nothing
Again, who were they going to quarantine before they got exposed, exactly? You keep arguing about quarantine, but you haven't actually said what they should have done, or when.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 18, 2018, 12:28:18 AM
The quarantine issue:
Aliens - not one attempt made at quarantine, even though they were briefed about the situation.
Ripley: "You're crazy, Burke, do you know that? Do you really think you can get a dangerous organism like that past I.C.C Quarantine?"
The characters of the film going through quarantine on their way back is so much a given that Burke's whole plan in the second act of the film revolves around trying to get around it.
Ripley: "He figured he could get an alien back through quarantine if one of us was impregnated, whatever you call it, and then frozen for the trip home."
Your issue has been solved.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 24, 2018, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 18, 2018, 12:28:18 AM
The quarantine issue:
Aliens - not one attempt made at quarantine, even though they were briefed about the situation.
Ripley: "You're crazy, Burke, do you know that? Do you really think you can get a dangerous organism like that past I.C.C Quarantine?"
The characters of the film going through quarantine on their way back is so much a given that Burke's whole plan in the second act of the film revolves around trying to get around it.
Ripley: "He figured he could get an alien back through quarantine if one of us was impregnated, whatever you call it, and then frozen for the trip home."
Your issue has been solved.
Thank you!
Quote from: TC on Jan 16, 2018, 11:48:08 AM
OK, I feel the need to make a contribution to this thread that's back on topic... ;D
It would be interesting, but not vital, for Scott to introduce an Alien Queen into the next story. Interesting, only because I think he would have some unique spin on the concept, not because I want to see the entire franchise linked up, storywise.
As for the egg-morphing vs Queen issue: it's been pointed out that a bit of elaboration of the life cycle can make an allowance for both. That suits me fine but if Scott wants to ignore the Queen idea entirely as though Cameron's Aliens story will never exist, that's OK with me too. That's because I've always seen the films in the franchise as being "alternate universe" contributions from each director anyway.
For the same reason, I don't care if "Covenant 2" (or whatever it's called) paves the way for the Alien 1979 movie to take place. The '79 film will always exist in my mind as its own unique and self-contained movie. It works beautifully that way (especially the special cut with the alien-nest scene restored), and the prequels already have a very different style than the one established in the Scott/O'Bannon/Shusett/Giger original. (I guess that's only to be expected given the decades of directing Scott did in the intervening years, and so too, his development as an artist,)
It's been said countless times before, but Alien 1979 is modelled on an unpretentious B-movie paradigm (and proudly so, might I add); Prometheus and Covenant are not. Collectively, to me, they will never feel like chapters in the same book. Not like Star Wars films, or Harry Potter films, Hunger Games, etc.
TC
I think A:C borrowed from
Alien and
Aliens.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 17, 2018, 09:09:47 AM
The securing of the dropship I'll grant you and wasn't something I'd particularly ever thought about. But then you do have Spunkmeyer knocking around somewhere and Ferro is in the cock-pit and we know the Aliens are stealthy at times. I do disagree with them not bringing the right weaponry or equipment.
Every single weapon we see them use has some effect (the Veep maybe not) and they did bring detection gear. It's not their fault the Alien didn't show up on infared, but they brought some. The motion tracker obviously works too.
In regards to the acid blood...not sure there's anything demonstrated in any of the Alien films that is resistant to it. They're still wearing armour and taking that extra protective step. The ceiling...yeah, could give you that one too but it is justified within the film and feels more like a stretch to find flaws.
I wonder what Burke told Gorman given information from Ripley and Handley's Hope, i.e., assuming that the colony continued sending messages even after more colonists became infected.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 24, 2018, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 18, 2018, 12:28:18 AM
The quarantine issue:
Aliens - not one attempt made at quarantine, even though they were briefed about the situation.
Ripley: "You're crazy, Burke, do you know that? Do you really think you can get a dangerous organism like that past I.C.C Quarantine?"
The characters of the film going through quarantine on their way back is so much a given that Burke's whole plan in the second act of the film revolves around trying to get around it.
Ripley: "He figured he could get an alien back through quarantine if one of us was impregnated, whatever you call it, and then frozen for the trip home."
Your issue has been solved.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 24, 2018, 09:19:09 AM
And on top of that:
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 01:58:55 AM
In Aliens there was nothing
Again, who were they going to quarantine before they got exposed, exactly? You keep arguing about quarantine, but you haven't actually said what they should have done, or when.
In the first Alien it's mentioned they have to go into quarantine when they get back. However, Ripley tries to quarantine Kane when she finds out he has an alien organism attached to him.
So, going by this logic, what was the point of that scene, then? Why bother with trying to quarantine Kane/Lambert/Dallas if they are going to be quarantined when they get back?
That's the point I'm trying to get across.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 05:38:24 AM
In the first Alien it's mentioned they have to go into quarantine when they get back. However, Ripley tries to quarantine Kane when she finds out he has an alien organism attached to him.
So, going by this logic, what was the point of that scene, then? Why bother with trying to quarantine Kane/Lambert/Dallas if they are going to be quarantined when they get back?
That's the point I'm trying to get across.
The film explains -- they all have to go into quarantine
because their quarantine procedure was breached.
The Nostromo had the option of preventing an organism from getting on board by keeping it in the airlock, so that was their quarantine procedure. When that protocol was broken, the next step is to quarantine the whole ship when it gets home. Had the protocol
not been broken (and, y'know, Kane hadn't still burst inside the ship), then the rest of the ship wouldn't need to be quarantined.
Yeah so, what was the quarantine procedure in Aliens. Answer = there was none.
This is just nitpicking, but the point remains, you nitpick one thing just because you don't like something, is hypocritical, and is just negativity for the sake of negativity.
Hell, look at Alien 3, the soldiers and scientists at the end, fully decked out in protective equipment. They knew what they were dealing with, but so did the marines.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.alienslegacy.com%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D11925%26amp%3Bt%3D1%26amp%3Bsid%3D185e2adf6866e3c052a7b70e57310080&hash=52d5524d0d751687100d483fbbcd9f616f66199c)
(https://rorygregg.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/shifting_goals2.jpg)
The Scorpio Special!
What are you trying to say with that pic, SM, can you elaborate?
Quote from: Highland on Jan 26, 2018, 07:20:29 AM
The Scorpio Special!
I can take one on the chin, but there's no need for that kind of commentary. If you're going to contribute something, contribute something useful.
That you are moving the goal posts again. Personally, I feel this is also appropriate -
(https://czarniklife.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/bb2e6-4mime-attachment.gif)
Fair enough, but I think it would be better they stick to the topic rather than make accusations.
(https://i.imgur.com/iMyqfFa.gif)
They're not wrong. Also, the discussion has been had and addressed several pages ago.
It has been addressed, just not adequately.
I imagine this is Corporal Hicks right about now.
(https://i.imgur.com/JfXdSIv.gif)
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 07:07:56 AM
Yeah so, what was the quarantine procedure in Aliens. Answer = there was none.
The quarantine procedure was to quarantine the ship on return to Earth.
The end.
Some of the people who rock up in
Alien3 are wearing suits. Others aren't. The marines didn't
know they were encountering an alien organism, as they clearly thought it was more likely a technical fault; the mercs in A3 knew exactly what they were getting into from the outset. And even then.
They weren't all wearing suits.
It's really not that difficult. You're trying to say there should be something else, but you haven't really suggested a single thing. You just keep saying "but quarantine!" over and over and over again. Make a point or move on, please.
They were given full report by Ripley, we've already been over "they did not know" argument. The thing about "they didn't believe her" doesn't matter, you have to follow the law.
And as to the law, Ripley says in Alien "You also forgot the Science Division's basic quarantine law.". It's the law, you cannot just ignore it.
This is ridiculous.
Do you understand that Ripley knew more about alien at the end of the first movie than she did at the beginning? It was no longer just some mysterious organism that may or may not contaminate the crew with some sort of microbial infection.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 10:37:02 AM
And as to the law, Ripley says in Alien "You also forgot the Science Division's basic quarantine law.". It's the law, you cannot just ignore it.
And you still aren't saying what they should have done. You're just bleating "but quarantine!!"
You do realise there's a difference between a commercial towing vehicle landing on an uncharted planet, and a military operation to an established outpost? You realise quarantine procedures are subjective to circumstances?
Seriously, what are you suggesting here - that the marines carry around an airlock to lock people in?
Or should they have locked themselves in an airlock before going down or something? Do you think that's what was missing?
You're not connecting what happens in
Alien to what happens in
Aliens at all. You're saying a commercial towing vehicle's procedure was to use the airlock, so the marines f**k up because they... Don't?
Please answer this very simple question:
What should the marines have done that they didn't with regards to quarantine?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 10:37:02 AM
They were given full report by Ripley, we've already been over "they did not know" argument. The thing about "they didn't believe her" doesn't matter, you have to follow the law.
And as to the law, Ripley says in Alien "You also forgot the Science Division's basic quarantine law.". It's the law, you cannot just ignore it.
The law is about
breaking quarantine. Nobody breaks quarantine in Aliens. What the hell are you even talking about at this point?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 26, 2018, 11:37:27 AM
This is ridiculous.
Do you understand that Ripley knew more about alien at the end of the first movie than she did at the beginning? It was no longer just some mysterious organism that may or may not contaminate the crew with some sort of microbial infection.
She does not know that. Just because you don't get sick doesn't mean there is no risk of getting sick.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 26, 2018, 11:48:59 AM
You do realise there's a difference between a commercial towing vehicle landing on an uncharted planet, and a military operation to an established outpost? You realise quarantine procedures are subjective to circumstances?
Yeah, the difference is the marines
knew, they had prior knowledge, so no excuse.
QuoteSeriously, what are you suggesting here - that the marines carry around an airlock to lock people in?
No but they should have had better preparations.
QuotePlease answer this very simple question:
What should the marines have done that they didn't with regards to quarantine?
(https://cdni.rt.com/files/news/30/fb/70/00/ebola-nurse-quarantine-maine.n.jpg)
Basically as soon as they saw alien shit everywhere, which is when they first entered the hive. Before that, even. Then Gorman should have quarantined the survivors.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 26, 2018, 12:08:31 PM
The law is about breaking quarantine. Nobody breaks quarantine in Aliens.
They did, according to Alien.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 26, 2018, 11:37:27 AM
This is ridiculous.
Do you understand that Ripley knew more about alien at the end of the first movie than she did at the beginning? It was no longer just some mysterious organism that may or may not contaminate the crew with some sort of microbial infection.
She does not know that. Just because you don't get sick doesn't mean there is no risk of getting sick.
You don't think she was poked and prodded for any sign of physical malady after she was rescued?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
They did, according to Alien.
No, they didn't. In Alien you have a clearly defined space which constitutes as the quarantine zone, and when that's broken by Ash, the quarantine procedure becomes about isolating the whole crew and ship. In Aliens, the procedure is about isolating everyone involved in the mission from the minute they realize they're dealing with aliens and not a broken transmitter. Burke
wants to break it, but fails.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
https://cdni.rt.com/files/news/30/fb/70/00/ebola-nurse-quarantine-maine.n.jpg
Basically as soon as they saw alien shit everywhere, which is when they first entered the hive. Before that, even.
...OK, that's not quarantine. Quarantine is isolating a person, animal or object in a designated space. Who or what should the marines have quarantined?
QuoteThen Gorman should have quarantined the survivors.
So, Newt. Who got examined by the medical officer and was given a clean bill of health, albeit slightly malnourished.
You make a point that Ripley's report should have made the marines go in wearing full hazmat gear, but at the same time feel the fact she's clearly not infected with some kind of virus or infection after contact with the Alien should be utterly irrelevant to the marines.
Scorpio sounds like Clemens trying to bullshit his way into cremating some corpses. :laugh:
It's an attempt at a roundabout defence of the issue people have with spacesuits in Prometheus and Covenant.
Your patience is staggering.
People have been living on LV426 for years....
Quote from: Highland on Jan 26, 2018, 02:23:12 PM
People have been living on LV426 for years....
Yeah, but a well explored long lived in environment is the same as an uncharted planet you know nothing about and decided to explore on a whim.
This is why I never leave the house without my hazmat suit.
The marines should've worn spacesuits but any criticism of Covenant is "just nitpicking... and is just negativity for the sake of negativity".
I guess, for me, Aliens set the precedent, so Prometheus and Covenant don't bother me. It's established that the Covenant crew had weeks to run checks on the planet, after initial scans revealed it was a better bet than the planet they were aiming for. But, uh-oh, hidden horror. That's adequate. I don't care to look into it any deeper than that. Futile endevour.
Suit thing never bothered me in any of the films. It makes sense and looks good in Alien because of the harsher environment.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2018, 11:24:50 PM
But, uh-oh, hidden horror.
And that's the main difference. Both the marines and the Covenant crew were on a rescue mission, didn't wear spacesuits because of breathable atmosphere, both took armed soldiers, but the Covenant crew had no warning of any threat. The marines were warned, yet for some reason the marines get a pass yet the Covenant crew do not. The marines knew a lot more than the Covenant crew did, they have less excuse.
I should also add about the people living on the planet - are people forgetting about Shaw? Shaw was shown to be living on the planet, so the excuse about 'lived in planet' doesn't make sense, either.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 12:25:24 AM
And that's the main difference. Both the marines and the Covenant crew were on a rescue mission,
The Covenant crew were never on a rescue mission. They were on a colonization mission. Even when they decide to explore the planet the signal is coming from, colonization is still their main priority.
Quote
The marines knew a lot more than the Covenant crew did, they have less excuse.
This is exactly why they get a pass - they knew what environment they're walking into!
Quote
I should also add about the people living on the planet - are people forgetting about Shaw? Shaw was shown to be living on the planet, so the excuse about 'lived in planet' doesn't make sense, either.
Shaw isn't shown living on any planet. Her voice is heard singing a John Denver song. They find a hologram of her sitting in the derelict pilot chair on the derelict itself once they have already landed.
Good god, how is it that someone who defends the film gets so many surface level details about it wrong?
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 01:06:26 AM
This is exactly why they get a pass - they knew what environment they're walking into!
The fact that derelict went undiscovered for so long, meant it wasn't totally explored.
Quote
Shaw isn't shown living on any planet. Her voice is heard singing a John Denver song. They find a hologram of her sitting in the derelict pilot chair on the derelict itself once they have already landed.
They knew exactly where the transmission came from - on the planet. That's how they found the derelict. Which means it came from the planet. Ergo, Shaw was living on the planet.
She could have sent the transmission while still in space, but there's nothing to suggest that, particularly given that viral scene, she was in hypersleep, she must have sent it after they landed.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 01:11:13 AM
The fact that derelict went undiscovered for so long, meant it wasn't totally explored.
The marines weren't sent to the derelict. How is it even related? They were sent to a colony that was operating for 20 years! When you spend 20 years in a place, logic dictates that place to be explored. When you spend less than 24 hours in a place (as is the case in Covenant), logic dictates it is an unknown environment.
Quote
They knew exactly where the transmission came from - on the planet. That's how they found the derelict. Which means it came from the planet. Ergo, Shaw was living on the planet.
No, it only means that the source of the transmission is on the planet. It doesn't mean the source of the transmission is alive...
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 01:18:54 AM
The marines weren't sent to the derelict. How is it even related? They were sent to a colony that was operating for 20 years! When you spend 20 years in a place, logic dictates that place to be explored. When you spend less than 24 hours in a place (as is the case in Covenant), logic dictates it is an unknown environment.
Yeah the Colony was explored, but that doesn't mean it is safe, because there are other unexplored parts surrounding the Colony, and the fact that someone went into those unexplored parts (see special edition of Aliens) and brought something back with them. You'll notice the marines did not expect to see alien resin everywhere, which means what was explored has now become unexplored.
Quote
No, it only means that the source of the transmission is on the planet. It doesn't mean the source of the transmission is alive...
Well she was alive when she sent the transmission. No reason to assume she isn't alive. Unlike with the colonists, where they had prior warning of hostile aliens, and their survival was in doubt.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 01:27:48 AM
Yeah the Colony was explored, but that doesn't mean it is safe, because there are other unexplored parts surrounding the Colony, and the fact that someone went into those unexplored parts (see special edition of Aliens) and brought something back with them. You'll notice the marines did not expect to see alien resin everywhere, which means what was explored has now become unexplored.
No, it doesn't mean it's safe which is why:
1. They sent in Marines in the first place.
2. Once they establish that they are indeed dealing with an alien species, they talk about quarantine upon return to Earth.
Quote
Well she was alive when she sent the transmission. No reason to assume she isn't alive. Unlike with the colonists, where they had prior warning of hostile aliens, and their survival was in doubt.
Plenty of reasons:
1. You don't know who sent it.
2. You don't know when it was sent.
3. You don't know why it was sent.
I don't understand why you assume she's alive. She factually wasn't alive; The crew itself - which I personally count as the dumbest collection of people ever sent into space - didn't even assume she's alive. They went to explore the planet based on their initial readings of the planet itself, and not because they were hoping to rescue anyone.
Wasn't it David that sent the transmission? He's the one that's been marooned. Why would she send a transmission of her singing John Denver?
We know very little about the transmission (who sent it, when and why). All we do know is Shaw recorded it at some point.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 01:38:04 AM
No, it doesn't mean it's safe which is why:
1. They sent in Marines in the first place.
2. Once they establish that they are indeed dealing with an alien species, they talk about quarantine upon return to Earth.
Exactly, they sent marines which means they didn't assume it was safe, they took some precautions.
You have to assume the threat is real.
Now the Nostromo crew, they had no idea they were dealing with aliens, yet they (at least one of them did) still followed proper quarantine protocols.
Even in Alien Covenant, once Ledward got sick, quarantine protocols were established, even though it was sloppily done, they still attempted it.
Quote
Plenty of reasons:
1. You don't know who sent it.
2. You don't know when it was sent.
3. You don't know why it was sent.
I don't understand why you assume she's alive. She factually wasn't alive; The crew itself - which I personally count as the dumbest collection of people ever sent into space - didn't even assume she's alive. They went to explore the planet based on their initial readings of the planet itself, and not because they were hoping to rescue anyone.
They had no reason to assume she wasn't alive.
And as for rescue, even the Captain said "We have a responsibility to investigate"
Quote from: Highland on Jan 27, 2018, 01:38:57 AM
Wasn't it David that sent the transmission? He's the one that's been marooned. Why would she send a transmission of her singing John Denver?
I assumed she accidentally sent it. You can see her at the controls in The Crossing short. I am not sure at what point it was actually sent, or when it was recorded. Possibly before David put her in hypersleep, or maybe after. It's not explained.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 01:53:28 AM
Exactly, they sent marines which means they didn't assume it was safe, they took some precautions.
You have to assume the threat is real.
No, they don't assume there even is a threat. Them being a marine force is a contingency for the small chance that it is. Their original assumption is that it's just a communications issue and that Ripley is full of shit. How many characters not believing Ripley's story are required to get that point across?
Burke's the only one in there who knows she's telling the truth, which is why he asks her to come along in the first place.
Quote
Now the Nostromo crew, they had no idea they were dealing with aliens, yet they (at least one of them did) still followed proper quarantine protocols.
Even in Alien Covenant, once Ledward got sick, quarantine protocols were established, even though it was sloppily done, they still attempted it.
No, Ripley starts talking quarantine only after Dallas identifies the thing that's attached to Kane's face as an alien organism, which is because they are still able to contain it at that point.
And yes, this is why Covenant can be compared to Alien, but not to Aliens. In Covenant they also had a chance to contain the contagion, which was never present in Aliens. People make fun of Covenant because the person who established the quarantine in the first place is the one to also break it. I personally give that part of the scene a pass due to the emotional state of the characters, but still...
Quote
They had no reason to assume she wasn't alive.
They had no reason to assume a god knows how old transmission, sent by someone who's gender they can't even identify because of how broken it is, located on an uncharted planet might be dead?
...Really?
Quote
And as for rescue, even the Captain said "We have a responsibility to investigate"
Oram makes his motivations (as objectionable as I might find them) perfectly clear during his argument with Daniels.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 02:14:41 AM
No, they don't assume there even is a threat. Them being a marine force is a contingency for the small chance that it is. Their original assumption is that it's just a communications issue and that Ripley is full of shit. How many characters not believing Ripley's story are required to get that point across?
They always assume threat.
Ever heard of 'swatting'? It's a sick prank that people pull. They call the police and say there is a hostage situation at someone's house, and they send swat teams. People have died because of this prank.
So your argument about 'they don't take Ripley seriously' is false, as demonstrated by the real world.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 02:32:15 AM
They always assume threat.
Ever heard of 'swatting'? It's a sick prank that people pull. They call the police and say there is a hostage situation at someone's house, and they send swat teams. People have died because of this prank.
So your argument about 'they don't take Ripley seriously' is false, as demonstrated by the real world.
The hell?
Your example is of someone calling the police and literally telling them about a threat.
The film's scenario is someone not picking up a phone...
As for my argument about them not taking Ripley seriously in the film:
Vasquez: Hey, mira- who's Snow White?
Ferro: She's supposed to be some kind of consultant. Apparently she saw an alien once.
Hudson: Whoopee ****in' doo, I'm impressed.
They quite obviously don't believe her. Only Hicks takes her seriously, so he gets to live.
I'm not talking about the marines. The marines are just grunts, they are just there to follow orders. It's the authorities in charge making the decisions, not the marines.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 02:41:07 AM
I'm not talking about the marines. The marines are just grunts, they are just there to follow orders. It's the authorities in charge making the decisions, not the marines.
Ah, I see. You were talking about the authorities who suspended Ripley's license and put her on Psychiatric probation after telling them her little alien story. My mistake.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 02:42:58 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 02:41:07 AM
I'm not talking about the marines. The marines are just grunts, they are just there to follow orders. It's the authorities in charge making the decisions, not the marines.
Ah, I see. You were talking about the authorities who suspended Ripley's license and put her on Psychiatric probation after telling them her little alien story. My mistake.
When they lost contact with the Colony, suddenly her threat seemed credible.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 02:50:04 AM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 02:42:58 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 02:41:07 AM
I'm not talking about the marines. The marines are just grunts, they are just there to follow orders. It's the authorities in charge making the decisions, not the marines.
Ah, I see. You were talking about the authorities who suspended Ripley's license and put her on Psychiatric probation after telling them her little alien story. My mistake.
When they lost contact with the Colony, suddenly her threat seemed credible.
No, her threat still doesn't seem credible...
...which is why the marines don't believe her.
Even the ones who did give her the benefit of the doubt seemed to think that they were just bugs that could be easily handled.
Yep.
The authorities didn't think it was credible. If they did they 'would've made a major security situation out of it'.
Of course they thought it was credible, that's why they sent marines. "A Xenomorph may be involved" It's just unconfirmed. If it was confirmed, they would've sent more marines than what they did.
Why send more marines?
Because a dozen marine is not enough to deal with the situation.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 26, 2018, 10:37:02 AM
They were given full report by Ripley, we've already been over "they did not know" argument. The thing about "they didn't believe her" doesn't matter, you have to follow the law.
And as to the law, Ripley says in Alien "You also forgot the Science Division's basic quarantine law.". It's the law, you cannot just ignore it.
It's also possible that Burke received several reports from Handley's Hope, together with some of his associates, which means it would have been illogical for them not to believe Ripley if the colonists were reporting similar findings.
Quote from: SM on Jan 27, 2018, 01:46:19 AM
We know very little about the transmission (who sent it, when and why). All we do know is Shaw recorded it at some point.
Well we don't even know that. It appears that everything in the bridge get's recorded. If it was a distress signal it would have been a distress signal. Best guess is that David used it to bait passing ships since he wouldn't have anything of Shaw needing help and nobody would come pick up an Android.
Also they scanned the area and found no planets, plus the neutrino burst could have been part of the trap set by David.
How did David create a stellar ignition in sector 106 when he was stuck on planet in sector 87?
QuoteWell we don't even know that. It appears that everything in the bridge get's recorded.
This is also possible.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 06:02:50 AM
plus the neutrino burst could have been part of the trap set by David.
(https://i.imgur.com/yNen4e9.gif)
Two pages later and Scorpio still hasn't said who or what should have been quarantined where or how...
Scorpio isn't ready.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.tinypic.com%2Fix5b48.png&hash=f486fa0d53d9442efffe61d7fc935427af99f4dc)
Just before he took a dive onto the craft services table.
:laugh:
Ok, enough silly buggers. Back on topic.
Want more banter. And bitty.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 12:19:47 PM
Ok, enough silly buggers. Back on topic.
So you're conceding you never actually had a point? Because you still haven't made one.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 27, 2018, 06:02:50 AM
Also they scanned the area and found no planets, plus the neutrino burst could have been part of the trap set by David.
I forgot that all dreadnoughts carry Sunny D: Unleash the Power of the Sun.
Hydration aids muscle mass. Drink plenty of fluid.
The film already has David being a geneticist, a kung-fu master, a drug smuggler, an embryo designer and a ship hacker with zero setup or explanation.
Why not give him the ability to Kamehameha neutrino bursts at random ships?
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 27, 2018, 02:46:28 PM
The film already has David being a geneticist, a kung-fu master, a drug smuggler, an embryo designer and a ship hacker with zero setup or explanation.
Why not give him the ability to Kamehameha neutrino bursts at random ships?
Excuse me, it was a spirit bomb. We all had faith in David, and our wishes and faith gave him the power to blow up a star. David is Goku.
He prefers to be called Android 22.
Um, long live the queen!
(Anybody want to continue this polemic as a separate thread?)
The wasp theory is really good with explaining the queen evolution of within the species but eggmorphing would better fit the mold of the prequels and is a bit more frightening.
Even though he wants to do his own thing, I don't think Ridley is against the creative direction of Aliens or even Alien 3 considering how it seems like inspiration was taken from Bishop to develope Walter's voice/behavior (while David is more like Ash).
I prefer less women.
Quote from: PredBabe on Jan 29, 2018, 12:09:17 AMThe wasp theory is really good with explaining the queen evolution of within the species but eggmorphing would better fit the mold of the prequels and is a bit more frightening.
David's eggs were grown rather than laid, so egg-morphing is practically locked in. I reckon the wasp theory is more than enough to fill in the gaps.
Why go through the process of morphing into an egg when the person could just morph into an adult? It seems the problem with egg-morphing is that it introduces a secondary and unnecessary step in reproduction. Eggs are meant to be laid.
That being said, if the aliens were created by an android, all bets are off in terms of bio-logic. Anything goes.
The only thing is that the queen is largely considered a pivotal part of the Alien lore and to get rid of her would be commercial suicide in my opinion.
You'd be rewriting everything if the host morphs right into the xeno.
Quote from: PredBabe on Jan 29, 2018, 01:58:07 PM
You'd be rewriting everything if the host morphs right into the xeno.
Im not proposing this. It's just an observation on what a ridiculously convoluted breeding process it would be.
I can see your point- it's all a stretch when we're talking about science fiction and a species that's been engineered from black goo (which I wouldn't give David full credit- he merely toyed around with what the Engineers had already designed).
It comes down to the old question of 'what came first?'
From what we've seen throughout the series is that the egg needs to come first. What David designed needs a host for the planted seed or embryo. By Alien you have an xeno, that started from an egg, but doesn't seem to have the ability to lay said egg so- eggmorph. Plus body horror. :P
With egg-morphing, the egg would be the first and last stage. The adult Alien is there as a means to spread around and make more. But there's nothing saying a Queen couldn't be born from one of those eggs for mass genocide of a species.
Egg-morphing, to me, seems integral because it is more cyclic than just the Queen method alone.
Simply put, if there is one positive thing from the Aliens being created by an android, its that the rules of evolution need not apply. There can be any number of steps involved in the aliens' reproduction, because he could make it so.
Isn't the purpose of the eggs to enable the xeno to lay dormant? They wait for however long it takes, thousands (maybe even millions) of years for a new host species to stumble across them, then they are reactivated. (In the original O'Bannon script the eggs are often referred to as "spores"). Which means the xeno can completely eradicate its prey from the ecosystem (which would normally be a no-no for a parasite, because that would mean extinction for itself), and then it will wait for an alien visitor from outside the ecosystem (i.e. off-world ) to show up.
I dunno what the blue laser in the mist is all about. I think Scott came up with that on his own (Laser projection for theatrical shows just became a new technology and Scott wanted one in his film). Or maybe it's a hold over from Giler and Hill's script in which the xenos were an Earth-controlled experimental warfare technology, so the lasers were an earth-tech protection device, or maybe a kind of "trip-wire" to activate the eggs?
TC
The queen should not be a part of the "prequel universe." It's already been included in three films.
Get more creative.
Oh totally, who needs continuity? ::)
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 31, 2018, 03:53:44 AM
Oh totally, who needs continuity? ::)
Sure, they can reference it for "continuity." I would not have a queen be an antagonist, though.
Oh, I get what you're saying. There would be an implication that the queen exists, but she would not be in the picture. That's legitimate.
I think the wasp reference in David's lab was enough of a nod to be honest. Legitimises it as a possible route without labouring the point.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 31, 2018, 11:19:51 AM
Oh, I get what you're saying. There would be an implication that the queen exists, but she would not be in the picture. That's legitimate.
Yeah, it's called the egg chamber in the first Alien film. You Blomkamp fans need to work on your critical thinking skills.
Quote from: Alionic on Feb 02, 2018, 06:16:01 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 31, 2018, 11:19:51 AM
Oh, I get what you're saying. There would be an implication that the queen exists, but she would not be in the picture. That's legitimate.
Yeah, it's called the egg chamber in the first Alien film. You Blomkamp fans need to work on your critical thinking skills.
That doesn't make sense.
And the pass-ag is missing the pass.
Quote from: Alionic on Feb 02, 2018, 06:16:01 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 31, 2018, 11:19:51 AM
Oh, I get what you're saying. There would be an implication that the queen exists, but she would not be in the picture. That's legitimate.
Yeah, it's called the egg chamber in the first Alien film. You Blomkamp fans need to work on your critical thinking skills.
So evidently being on a last warning about being an arse meant nothing to you.
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/d827ab219f110b637ff2b4ad2b37b6a8/tumblr_ou4txw62pU1wo1px3o2_540.gif)
I don't buy the idea that the colonists will become eggs, how could that happen? Also, how could David create that many eggs? And how do these eggs end up in the cargo hold of the derelict? I want Ridley Scott to answer these questions. A queen might be a shortcut answer, maybe the Acheron Queen was created by David and was holed up in the derelict somewhere for all that time. It's fun to think about.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 09:51:00 AM
I don't buy the idea that the colonists will become eggs, how could that happen? Also, how could David create that many eggs? And how do these eggs end up in the cargo hold of the derelict? I want Ridley Scott to answer these questions. A queen might be a shortcut answer, maybe the Acheron Queen was created by David and was holed up in the derelict somewhere for all that time. It's fun to think about.
David doesn't need to create eggs, he only needs to create an alien that egg-morphs victims.
Maybe, but I just don't see how or why an alien would egg morph 2000 colonists.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 02:08:07 PM
Maybe, but I just don't see how or why an alien would egg morph 2000 colonists.
Well, it wouldn't be one alien after the egg morphing begins. The original alien was supposed to be self-perpetuating before the egg laying queen was invented.
Quote from: Gash on Feb 02, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 09:51:00 AM
I don't buy the idea that the colonists will become eggs, how could that happen? Also, how could David create that many eggs? And how do these eggs end up in the cargo hold of the derelict? I want Ridley Scott to answer these questions. A queen might be a shortcut answer, maybe the Acheron Queen was created by David and was holed up in the derelict somewhere for all that time. It's fun to think about.
David doesn't need to create eggs, he only needs to create an alien that egg-morphs victims.
The Derelict is too well set out with eggs sat in bay's and the blue laser covering them over. It's far too organised for egg morphing or the Queen. It looks exactly like what Scott had mentioned the first time round, a bomber waiting to drop it's pay load.
I prefer SMs ( and others) that the Engineers own the original, it's just going to be kind of hard to express that on film to the audience, although I'm sure who created the eggs is last on most non fans lists.
Quote from: Highland on Feb 02, 2018, 04:52:38 PM
Quote from: Gash on Feb 02, 2018, 11:27:18 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 09:51:00 AM
I don't buy the idea that the colonists will become eggs, how could that happen? Also, how could David create that many eggs? And how do these eggs end up in the cargo hold of the derelict? I want Ridley Scott to answer these questions. A queen might be a shortcut answer, maybe the Acheron Queen was created by David and was holed up in the derelict somewhere for all that time. It's fun to think about.
David doesn't need to create eggs, he only needs to create an alien that egg-morphs victims.
The Derelict is too well set out with eggs sat in bay's and the blue laser covering them over. It's far too organised for egg morphing or the Queen. It looks exactly like what Scott had mentioned the first time round, a bomber waiting to drop it's pay load.
I prefer SMs ( and others) that the Engineers own the original, it's just going to be kind of hard to express that on film to the audience, although I'm sure who created the eggs is last on most non fans lists.
Kane mentions, in the novelisation, that the eggs are set out with a lot of wasted space that doesn't sit well with the idea of an organised cargo. This ties in with Lambert's "I wonder what happened to the rest of the crew?" and the the Dallas cocoon sequence that ties those clues together: that the crew (or passengers) are implied to have succumbed to eggmorphing, by accident or design.
There's no obvious organisation to the eggs on the Derelict, other than them being in those pits and not on the ridges in between.
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2018, 09:32:37 PM
There's no obvious organisation to the eggs on the Derelict, other than them being in those pits and not on the ridges in between.
They are all stored in one place. That's pretty specific. The field suggests some kind of containment.
The hold they're in vast and full of eggs, but it's not like they're laid out in rows or anything.
And yes, the laser suggests containment or at least security.
I think it's heavily implied the the pilot owns the eggs. I think a queen laying eggs in the Derilict would retcon the field at a minimum. I don't mind a queen, I just don't think it should or would be responsible for putting those eggs there.
If anything I prefer the David put them there scenario.
How about a queen making the eggs, and somebody picking the eggs up and moving them. I think that's the most likely scenario. The queen is superior to egg-morphing.
How does he pick up the eggs? Oh yeah, the Pilot does get attacked at some stage hence the hole in his ribcage. He may have risked his life just to transport all those eggs.
You could still have the Queen lay the eggs there I suppose if David was somehow in control of her.
Quote from: Highland on Feb 03, 2018, 01:00:57 AM
I think it's heavily implied the the pilot owns the eggs. I think a queen laying eggs in the Derilict would retcon the field at a minimum. I don't mind a queen, I just don't think it should or would be responsible for putting those eggs there.
If anything I prefer the David put them there scenario.
The complete absence of a hive would suggest a Queen didn't lay them and the Jockey was transporting them somewhere.
I would actually be ok ( if the powers that be make David the sole creator of the Xeno ) with the derelict eggs being egg morphed colonists from the Covenant.
Quote from: Russ840 on Feb 03, 2018, 06:53:50 PM
I would actually be ok ( if the powers that be make David the sole creator of the Xeno ) with the derelict eggs being egg morphed colonists from the Covenant.
I'd be ok with that too.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Feb 03, 2018, 02:42:38 AM
How about a queen making the eggs, and somebody picking the eggs up and moving them. I think that's the most likely scenario. The queen is superior to egg-morphing.
I've always felt the queen completely undermined the original alien. I'm ok with it being vaguely referenced as one route for the alien species to take, but I don't like it as the default life cycle.
Well, it does undermine it in some ways. I don't think eusociality mixes very well with parasitism, but on the other hand the queen is also, like, kinda cool. If they were to include it I wouldn't mind some minor design changes to make it more stream-lined, like removing the useless t-rex hands, toning down the size of the head-crest, maybe make her posture a bit more human etc.
Quote from: Gash on Feb 03, 2018, 09:07:22 PM
I've always felt the queen completely undermined the original alien.
The original alien is some kind of nightmare straight from the subconscious, the sequel made it a space bug. It's been said many times before. People can identify more with a space bug than a rape demon. Rape demon just does not fit with the happy families motif.
And space bug that wiped out Newt's happy family does?
Quote from: Highland on Feb 03, 2018, 01:00:57 AMIf anything I prefer the David put them there scenario.
That's my guess.
The Derelict to be will be present at the planet and David will use it as his egg storage.
At the end he or an Engineer will fly off with them, gets facehugged, crashes, sends signal, chestburst.
Quote from: SM on Feb 04, 2018, 06:58:49 AM
And space bug that wiped out Newt's happy family does?
Tragedies happen, but the theme of Aliens is that the family is the strongest unit of society. Even if it is a 'surrogate family' and not the traditional one. For all its 'feminism', Aliens is a conservative's wet dream. Ripley is punished for putting her career over family. She seeks penance by adopting an orphan. Hicks is surrogate father figure, and has chaste relationship with Ripley. No sex before marriage, in other words ("It doesn't mean we're engaged or anything").
Then Alien 3 throws all that away and the fans go nuts.
Only a moral conservative would think that Ripley was 'punished' or sought 'penance'.
So James Cameron must be a moral conservative then.
James Cameron strikes me as a man with many conflicting points of view on moral issues. He is often conservative and liberal simultaneously.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 05, 2018, 01:37:45 PM
So James Cameron must be a moral conservative then.
You could show JC that aliens analysis video that you've apparently soaked up and most likely he wouldnt have a clue what they're talking about.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 05, 2018, 01:37:45 PMSo James Cameron must be a moral conservative then.
If you read into Aliens that Ripley was punished for being a career woman and sought penance by connecting with a orphan and being attracted to a hot space marine, you are a misogynistic ass.
I prefer the idea that Newt and Hicks were a reward for Ripley confronting her demons and surviving.
So the shower scene in Covenant is so unlike Friday the 13th when you think about it, a MARRIED couple getting killed. Total subversion of anything in Friday the 13th, of conservative/religious moral standards.
Aliens upholds conservative morals by focusing on the traditional family. So in that sense it's more like a Friday the 13th film. If you have pre-marital sex or take drugs, you die. If you put career over family, you lose your family.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 07, 2018, 01:56:04 AMAliens upholds conservative morals
How 'bout that gay couple?
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on Feb 07, 2018, 02:23:05 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 07, 2018, 01:56:04 AMAliens upholds conservative morals
How 'bout that gay couple?
Gorman and Burke? Don't worry, they were punished for their sins (within the context of the movie).
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 07, 2018, 01:56:04 AM
So the shower scene in Covenant is so unlike Friday the 13th when you think about it, a MARRIED couple getting killed. Total subversion of anything in Friday the 13th, of conservative/religious moral standards.
Aliens upholds conservative morals by focusing on the traditional family. So in that sense it's more like a Friday the 13th film. If you have pre-marital sex or take drugs, you die. If you put career over family, you lose your family.
It's funny how you point out that conservative values are about a couple being married, and then mention Aliens as a film that upholds those values? Like, Ripley and Hicks are married? What? In what universe is the "family" in Aliens a traditional one?
This is all without mentioning that getting her flight status back was one of Ripley's reasons for going, so she still chooses career over staying on Earth and having a "traditional family"...
Ricks and Upworth are interracial however, challenging conversative mores and are punished accordingly.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Feb 07, 2018, 05:12:26 AM
It's funny how you point out that conservative values are about a couple being married, and then mention Aliens as a film that upholds those values? Like, Ripley and Hicks are married? What? In what universe is the "family" in Aliens a traditional one?
They're not married, but they didn't share any intimate contact so they adhering to conservative morals.
Hicks did give her a psuedo-engagement gift, however. A ring is a circular object, usually worn on the finger, and traditionally used as a gift to propose a marriage. That's why I say 'psuedo', because it's not a ring, but it is a circular object.
And the idea of them being a 'traditional family' except a surrogate one, fits in with the modern ideas of the time. The Brady Bunch is not a traditional family, for example.
QuoteThis is all without mentioning that getting her flight status back was one of Ripley's reasons for going, so she still chooses career over staying on Earth and having a "traditional family"...
She had no family on Earth. What's the difference between having a traditional family on Earth or having one in space?
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2018, 05:58:55 AM
Ricks and Upworth are interracial however, challenging conversative mores and are punished accordingly.
That doesn't fit with 2017 conservatism, maybe 1950s, so I don't see your point. I'm not a conservative, but pretty sure modern mainstream conservatism doesn't view that as taboo.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2018, 05:58:55 AM
Ricks and Upworth are interracial however, challenging conversative mores and are punished accordingly.
I thought it might have been more for their choice of music... ;)