Genetic Aberrations, Revisiting The Predator - AvP Galaxy Podcast #95

Started by Corporal Hicks, Oct 21, 2019, 05:36:02 AM

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Genetic Aberrations, Revisiting The Predator - AvP Galaxy Podcast #95 (Read 19,792 times)

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Kurai on Oct 26, 2019, 03:16:28 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 26, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Fought fair and square? The battle was fine but no sense of honor, ritual or code was presented to the audience. And the classic Predator was strung up which is quite a torture. Where's the honor portrayed to audiences in that?

They literally provided the prey with weapons, they had numerous points where they could have slaughtered the prey outright and they didn't, they even entered into one on one unarmed combat when provided.
The strung up Jungle Predator was from another clan they were enemies with. There's honor and then there's pathological adherence to "honor". They were showing that their enemies weren't worthy of honor and that makes perfect sense.
No sense of ritual? The entire movie is one incredibly complex ritual.  :-\

Yes, how people use the word ritual can be vague, and brushing our teeth every day many people call a "morning ritual", but I was referring more to the definition: a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.

And come on, without trying to patch logic together, nothing was clearly conveyed to the audience that the Super Predators were honorable creatures. Just the opposite when they strung up the classic Predator. Torture does not equate to honor.

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Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 26, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
In the uneven film The Predator, the playing possum Fugitive let naked Casey survive, but conflictingly killed a bunch of other unarmed doctors in the lab. But that whole script is a mess.

It's ambiguous here, I'll give you that, but I don't think he was playing possum, I think he had just woken up and was desperate to escape. The scientists could very well have drugged him again and he was eliminating that threat. Again, there's honor and then there's pathological adherence to a code when it makes no sense.>

In the script the Fugitive is playing possum, but I agree it's ambiguous in the movie.


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Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 26, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
In the camper? Watch it again. That had nothing to do with honor but rather mission. "Tracking stolen cargo." The humans at that point wasn't its primary concern.

Primary concern or not, it gave the humans a fair head start and even gave them opportunities to set traps when it could have easily have slaughtered the bunch of them, taken the kid and headed home for the day.

That's a stretch. Come on. No one left the theater thinking wow, that 11 foot Upgrade Predator sure had a code of honor. I highly doubt most anyone came away with that.

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Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 26, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
In Predator 1 and 2 there was not killing the unarmed. Not killing the young. Not killing the pregnant. Respecting the prey when it kills a fellow Predator, even rewarding the prey.

No... any sense of honor, ritual or code has not been been ramped up clearly to audiences in the Predator movies since Predator 2. Just the opposite. It's been marginalized.

I disagree but then I guess we're at a roadblock.  :-\
Even The Predator, the one I'm closest to agreeing with you about has clear examples showing that you're wrong, one you even listed yourself, and again the very premise of the movie, with the delivering of the Predator Killer armor is another clear sign of your fractal wrongness on the topic.

The premise of a Predator wanting to help us on it's own, agreed. But the actual result of a fractured film, fractured script, killing innocent humans you want to save, the premise of "honor" and code is so lost to the audience.. especially comparing it to the ending of Predator 2 where it was clearly expressed, not marginalized.


QuotePredators even had the Jungle Hunter respect Royce after being freed.

Yes, a save for a save was good. That's why I said it "basically non-existent" in the last two films versus non-existent.  I would like to bring that to the forefront again. But that's just me.

QuoteAnd, while I wouldn't count it, it's fun to add that the Predator Hound in the Predator, turned good after being defeated.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That scene is just too cringey to comment!  :laugh:

Kurai

Regardless, my concept doesn't have to do away with that entirely.

The main Predator would be a psychopathic villain, which greatly increases the horror, but on its' defeat, we could have a scene similar to Predator 2 and the first AvP where the other Preds are like "Holy Fudge Buckets! You actually killed that bastard! Here, you want to come with us on our ship and hunt?" setting up a sequel in space.
I just think that the Preds have been cringey and not scary lately. I want a scary Predator film where the folk expect honor and get screwed because of it. Have a scene where they're like, "Don't go in armed! It won't attack you, there's no sport!" and it's their famous last words.
It would be more interesting for me and have them regain some of their otherness, where they can't just all be lumped into a single or a few categories based on preconceptions. Heck! You could even have it that it instead spares someone who did a great deal of damage to it, have it totally reversed so that it can come back and face that specific prey again some day.

Going back and pandering to nostalgia will be a death cry for the series, but going forward into comic book territory like in The Predator is just as bad.

EVILthePREDATOR

Honor or no honor I think we can all agree that the next film needs to be scary and the violence should be thought provoking  and notched up to 💯 .

Also what's questionable to our own honor and morality might not be the same as theirs. Predator doesn't like killing unarmed prey right?

I have a very scene in my head, where a predator is monitoring insurgents and gathering intel from above. He sees them torturing and killing bound unarmed civilians. Because they are killing unarmed people and there's no honor in it, Predator thinks it's perfectly fine to teach them some manors, and evens the playing fields by capturing their evil commander and proceeds to flay him alive before taking his head all in graphic detail.

So while we could have a "bad" predator in terms of brutal violence in scenes, it doesn't  mean it has to be "mindless" when in fact you could be clever and make their honor code more complex.

"He's only a bad guy to to bad guys"

With the viewer having some sympathy with the actions the creature is committing.


SuperiorIronman

If I had it my way I would opt for a lean on the religious practices. Taking a cue from Absolute Carnage, I'd have one come to Earth to fulfill a ritual by way of the hunt more than hunt for enjoyments sake. Largely because I feel like a bad blood would require an enforcer and that might be two PVP films too many. More I'd go for a deranged Predator in some sense. Like his presence and actions don't directly violate Predator law but he's enough of a problem someone has to go get him.

In this case I'd opt for a Predator trying to summon one of their gods by way of spilled blood. They need a few specific kinds of bodies and ritualistic killings in specific places and the threat to the humans is figuring out who is next and how before the killer can get to them (Predator by way of Final Destination). While I would have an enforcer or two show up to clean up messes (like humans returning to collect evidence only to find the bodies and blood are gone) I wouldn't have them directly kill the Predator, more that they show up to collect the body and get a look at the bewildered survivors before they left. In the end that might also be an application of the storm scenario where the "god is summoned" only for it to actually be a particularly nasty hurricane where the ending takes place in.

Given a lot of the films show the Predator in full, I'd also say that at no point should we get a proper view of any of them to raise tension. Since you never get a good look you don't know if one is the Enforcer or not or if the thing that just occurred was result of the Predator or not.

Ronoc

I don't understand the honour claims. Is it honorable for a fully armed special forces soldier to take out a small group armed with sticks and stones. Honorable to fistfight a guy who weighs 1/3 what you do. Like beating on a child.
Also in the first movie when he loses, where's the honour in trying to blow up the guy who beat him?
I dunno why people try to forget he was the bad guy. A complete dick.
So they had to go out and invent nonsense like 'Bad Bloods'.
Like Predators aren't already asshats

SuperiorIronman

Quote from: Ronoc on Oct 28, 2019, 09:41:29 AM
I don't understand the honour claims. Is it honorable for a fully armed special forces soldier to take out a small group armed with sticks and stones. Honorable to fistfight a guy who weighs 1/3 what you do. Like beating on a child.
Also in the first movie when he loses, where's the honour in trying to blow up the guy who beat him?
I dunno why people try to forget he was the bad guy. A complete dick.
So they had to go out and invent nonsense like 'Bad Bloods'.
Like Predators aren't already asshats

I don't think anybody forgot they are the antagonists it's just that there is way more that goes into it rather than them simply being slasher move character and probably why it's endured longer.

-They wont kill kids unless there's an actual threat (remember the kid actually spotted a cloaked City Hunter)
-They wont kill someone pregnant
-They'll present a gift for a victory (later backed up in AVP)
-Everybody sent to the game preserve is some form of dangerous killer
-All Predator protagonists had the ability to fight back barring Mckenna

There of course is things they gloss over like Edwin being a serial killer on a planet of nightmare monsters (so overall he's out of place), they'll kill mostly anybody with a gun if the challenge is there, and of course they demanded Human sacrifice.

So yeah they are the antagonists, but there is a way they go about things which leads to a twisted honor code since of course they don't do things the way we would. And this gets even more complicated the further we go into the EU since much of the Honor code is further built there though the basics are just what we see in the film.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Ronoc on Oct 28, 2019, 09:41:29 AM
I don't understand the honour claims. Is it honorable for a fully armed special forces soldier to take out a small group armed with sticks and stones. Honorable to fistfight a guy who weighs 1/3 what you do. Like beating on a child.
Also in the first movie when he loses, where's the honour in trying to blow up the guy who beat him?
I dunno why people try to forget he was the bad guy. A complete dick.
So they had to go out and invent nonsense like 'Bad Bloods'.
Like Predators aren't already asshats

Sports hunters have rules, code, honor, tradition, even showing respect to the prey before and after the kill.  Yeah they're in a tree, wearing camoflague, with a high powered scoped rifle... against a deer... but they feel they're being honorable by not shooting the young, a pregnant mother, etc. etc. Some even to this day use traditional weapons like a knife and sword to make the hunt more challenging.

But yeah, regardless of all this, if the animals that humans hunt could talk, I'm pretty certain they'd say we were asshats too. :laugh:

And the viewed purpose of detonation is to remove all trace of the Predator and their tech.

EVILthePREDATOR

@voodoo...

" And the viewed purpose of detonation is to remove all trace of the Predator and their tech."

Personally I think that's speculative. It wasn't really explained. It could very well of been but hurt that it lost a fair fight and tried to take Dutch with him.

I think predator being sadistic fits far better with what it actually is, which is a space killing high tech alien from the far reaches of space.
Than some sort of anti hero.

For example the "mwahahahahaha" laugh he makes while taunting his victims can hardly be classed as honorable. He clearly took pleasure in bringing death on his prey. I.e sadistic. Just like when a cat catches a mouse and wants to f*ck with it for a bit before it kills it. It's clearly doing it for self satisfaction. The very fact it takes trophies is very similar to mass murderers taking trophies from their victims, which is a common theme amongst psychopaths.

I think a predator of the modern world should push the boat on being mr bad guy. Of course it's only my opinion, but I just think a more savage primal predator is what's needed. In other words no more dumbed down nonsense. It was made for adults it should stay that way.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: EVILthePREDATOR on Oct 28, 2019, 12:57:22 PM
@voodoo...

" And the viewed purpose of detonation is to remove all trace of the Predator and their tech."

Personally I think that's speculative. It wasn't really explained. It could very well of been but hurt that it lost a fair fight and tried to take Dutch with him.

In Predator 2, when Mike Harrigan killed the City Hunter, not only did the other Predators let Mike live, they actually rewarded Mike for killing one of their own with a flintlock.

Considering both movies were written by the Predator creators the Thomas Brothers, and the Thomas Brothers indicated Predator 2 has all the aspects of the Predator they didn't get an opportunity to explain in the first movie, I think it's safe to say revenge killing isn't their normal way.

QuoteI think predator being sadistic fits far better with what it actually is, which is a space killing high tech alien from the far reaches of space.
Than some sort of anti hero.

That's cool that you feel that way, but it's not how the Thomas brothers conceptualized it. They've equated them to a "sports hunter" from outter space.

QuoteFor example the "mwahahahahaha" laugh he makes while taunting his victims can hardly be classed as honorable.

It wasn't the Predator's laugh, it was Billy's laugh repeated, but true, the end result gives a "muhahah" effect that worked great for the movie.

QuoteHe clearly took pleasure in bringing death on his prey. I.e sadistic. Just like when a cat catches a mouse and wants to f*ck with it for a bit before it kills it. It's clearly doing it for self satisfaction. The very fact it takes trophies is very similar to mass murderers taking trophies from their victims, which is a common theme amongst psychopaths.

Yeah, sorry, but the Predators are not pyscopaths. I know you really want them to be, I can tell, but the Thomas Brothers wrote them as a hunters collecting trophies. "Sports hunters". That's their quote, not mine. And they have a honor code that allowed them to let Mike live, Leona live, Anna live, Ramon's girlfriend live, the kid at the cemetary live, and so on.

Ronoc

What's honorable about killing something that doesn't want to die? Whatever honour there is exists only in his own head.
In practice he's a murdering psychopath.
Didn't one of them kill a train load of innocent people just on their way home from work? How many kids did he orphan that day.
Jungle Hunter went murder-suicde at the end, the biggest dick move you can pull.
I don't mind him being a dick, worked for the first movie.
But somebody decided to give him redemption in the second movie, and it was a wrong turn. People ran with the lore, and now it's the worst thing about the franchise, shoved in everywhere.
But what do I know, I thought the original Predator movie was about Arnold Schwarzenegger trying to survive some pycho alien, not 'Yuatja 101'...

EVILthePREDATOR

Sure I have my own ideas. But it mainly stems from the fact this franchise needs reimagining and personally I feel it desperately needs that now as the old "rules" and ideas, just ain't working anymore. It's needs a reinvention. Relevance now instead of to the past. Create new stories rather than the same work out stuff. I respect that the Thomas brothers are the creators. But that doesn't mean someone can't take risks and get creative.

Now I wouldn't go against its honor to do that, I just think the action needs a big shake up.

Voodoo Magic

It's the Predator Pyscopath  = ≠ Debate of 2019!  :P

Quote from: Ronoc on Oct 28, 2019, 03:18:30 PM
What's honorable about killing something that doesn't want to die? Whatever honour there is exists only in his own head.
In practice he's a murdering psychopath.

Well that's your personal judgment of Sports Hunting then. But generally, at least in America, society doesn't deem hunting in that light. It's legal and considered by many as culturally fine. Yeah, to you, if you go fishing and mount the fish on your wall, you're a murdering psychopath, but the global society as a whole has yet to come to such consensus, regardless if you and I disagree.

QuoteDidn't one of them kill a train load of innocent people just on their way home from work?

They were all armed. Being unarmed is why the Predator kept sparing Anna.

QuoteHow many kids did he orphan that day.

Hunters don't think in such terms.

QuoteBut somebody decided to give him redemption in the second movie, and it was a wrong turn. People ran with the lore, and now it's the worst thing about the franchise, shoved in everywhere.

Yeah, those Thomas Brothers, what knuckleheads!  ::)

Kurai

Not killing the young or pregnant females has nothing to do with honor though, it's making sure that there is still game to hunt in the future. It's a common hunting practice.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Kurai on Oct 28, 2019, 04:41:30 PM
Not killing the young or pregnant females has nothing to do with honor though, it's making sure that there is still game to hunt in the future. It's a common hunting practice.

It's honor in the terms of "conventional standard of conduct" which I think is applicable. Code can work too.  :)

EVILthePREDATOR

Voodoo, Jokes aside the fact is bud let's be honest, something needs to change. Big time!

We have stuck to the rules of the hunt, through p2, avp and avp R, predators and the predator.( sort of with the last two)

It's time to shake things up. And I think deep down you know that to.

As the films have progressively got worse and worse. It's obvious there's something that's gone wrong. Being a more aggressive sinister predator isn't the same as bad blood. (Who has gone against the its honor code)

Like I say I only want the extreme violence to be against "bad guys"

Perhaps this specimen of predator has a love of killing prey that demonstrates acts of evil?
I think it could play well into the plot and bounce of each other and make the predator more complex and interesting.

So I don't feel like it would be treading on the toes of a predators culture and honor if it was done right.

It would just give the raw power of predator some context for the viewer.

Now I'm not saying for one second my answer to the problem is the only answer. That's why I share my ideas because I love to hear other people's own unique take on it and what predator means to them.

And I really can't stress that enough. 

All I'm trying to get across more than anything is the next film has just got to get the tone right. That's the one thing imo that this franchise really needs more than anything. Everything just feels so inconsistent.

The actors, the dodgy CGI, the cheesy plots and throw backs etc. It's become a cheese fest.

Like Christian bale and Christopher Nolan reimagined Batman and took it away from the campiness of the 90s.

Someone needs to do the same with predator.

At the end of it all, you have to reinvent yourself to stay relevant in this world.

David Bowie, Madonna, Batman, even Spider-man and pop culture in general are perfect examples of constantly reinventing things that are loved to keep things fresh.

I really don't see how predator is any different in that light.

It's sad but true, and if you want something to be successful you have to accept that reality.


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