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Personally, I think the Weyland / David scene should have been removed from the main film, and instead kept as a viral or DVD extra.

The saved film runtime minutes should have been better spent on the final part of the movie to re-build tension when the survivors arrive back at the Covenant. The final off-screen chest-burst was a wasted opportunity.

For newbies, Covenant opening probably would only have much significance if we saw Weyland again at some point, or at least if cast drop more references about Weyland corp.

Also, if you add up the Prometheus opening, and the Alien Covenant opening, I wouldn't be surprised if that totals around 30 mins runtime (and in Prometheus, we all know about the illogical dialogue and how rushed the final part of the film felt)

I like it and consider it necessary.
It shows how Weyland treated David in a way they didn't show in Prometheus.
And how David was "born" among art.

It is absolutely crucial to the entire motivation of David and shows how his resentment was born moments after his creation. I do wonder if the Xeno felt the same as it cuts his camera feed, maybe it considers itself in that moment superior to David. No... I will not get your tea. 

The reason it's there, to show it is a David movie, not a Daniels movie. 

The opening scenes show the order of importance (in terms of characters):  David -> Walter -> Daniels

In Prometheus it was Shaw -> David -> Vickers

This is not true for every film, however, in the first Alien they don't establish Ripley until much later, so it depends on the narrative and the type of story they want to tell.  Alien is like Psycho where you follow one character and they end up dead, that character is Dallas who is supposed to be the hero of the movie, but they decided to upend convention in that instance.

No, I love the opening and its one of my favorite scenes in the movie. I don't think its absolutely crucial to the story but it does set up several plot points including why David behaves the way he does.

It's one of the film's better scenes, yet it is completely pointless. Every single piece of information given to the audience in that scene is given to the audience yet again later directly from David. It should've been cut in order to develop characters featured in the film that aren't yet known (which is everyone that isn't David).

The film surely needed it in order to be a little more than your average creature feature.

Quote from: motherfather on May 01, 2018, 06:08:33 AM
Personally, I think the Weyland / David scene should have been removed from the main film, and instead kept as a viral or DVD extra.

It very almost was removed from the film and was going to be used as a viral clip for San Diego Comic Con 2016. Fox even told Hicks to expect it at the end of the event but it was pulled at the last moment for unknown reasons.

Turns out it was the editor, Pietro Scalia who convinced Scott to put it back in the film.

Quote"SCALIA: At one point Ridley wanted to take the "white room" Prologue out at the beginning. I said, "why ... no absolutely not. You can't. It's very good." It's very formal, the way was shot and edited. The compositions and deliberate pace is the beauty of it. A chess game in the formal sense, triangles and lines that intersect from a design point of view, beside it's thematic importance I mentioned before. I love that the whole scene It reminded me of Kubrick and ....

Full article here: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/06/28/pietro-scalia-talks-editing-alien-covenant/ (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/06/28/pietro-scalia-talks-editing-alien-covenant/)

It nicely set up David's story though...the 12 minute Prometheus bridge is what got sacrificed in the process. Due to that we don't know if David truly cared for Shaw, did he kill her before the bombing or was she asleep and awaken afterwards.

Scalia should had respected Scott and kept the crossing or at least moved the entire unedited sequence were we see David and Walter in Shaw's grave than what we got in the viral or in the film itself.

The Evanus extended edit of AC does it the best: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=59282.0

No. Best scene in the film and one of the Alien franchise's best scenes.

Quote from: 0321recon on May 01, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
It nicely set up David's story though...the 12 minute Prometheus bridge is what got sacrificed in the process. Due to that we don't know if David truly cared for Shaw, did he kill her before the bombing or was she asleep and awaken afterwards.

Scalia should had respected Scott and kept the crossing or at least moved the entire unedited sequence were we see David and Walter in Shaw's grave than what we got in the viral or in the film itself.

The Crossing does not belong in the movie because Shaw's story is over.  It's just a pointless cameo. 

The cut that exists is perfect and is the best cut.  The Evanus cut is a boring and overlong film with weird edits, imo.  But if you enjoy it, that's fine.

One of the best scenes in the movie and Scott wanted to remove it :)

But he changed his mind because someone convinced him so.  Which means he is not a 'dictator' as so many fans proclaim.  He is still as collaborative as he was on Alien 1.

Quote from: Scorpio on May 01, 2018, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: 0321recon on May 01, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
It nicely set up David's story though...the 12 minute Prometheus bridge is what got sacrificed in the process. Due to that we don't know if David truly cared for Shaw, did he kill her before the bombing or was she asleep and awaken afterwards.

Scalia should had respected Scott and kept the crossing or at least moved the entire unedited sequence were we see David and Walter in Shaw's grave than what we got in the viral or in the film itself.

The Crossing does not belong in the movie because Shaw's story is over.  It's just a pointless cameo. 

The cut that exists is perfect and is the best cut.  The Evanus cut is a boring and overlong film with weird edits, imo.  But if you enjoy it, that's fine.

Actually I haven't even seen any of the fan edits since I know a whole lot more footage that's been locked out by Fox like this 12 minute sequence.

Her story is over though, needed proper closer for those who wanted to follow her story from Prometheus. Even Alien3 had a proper closer Hicks and Newt with the funeral scene.

In the end, if you like the theatrical cut, great, though some like myself won't find the inclusion of Shaw in an official alternate cut as pointless.

She was given proper closure, though, more so than Hicks who was only mentioned once by Clemens and then forgotten for the rest of the movie.

As some of you peeps mentioned, it's one of the best sequences in the movie and shouldn't even been considered to be removed. Not only does it set the gothic tone of the movie really well, it also bridges one of the most interesting aspects from Prometheus, the "daddy" issues, which are also closely related with David's path in Covenant. He wants to be a creator. He wants to be a father. He is awakened surrounded by art made by us, in an almost suffocating way, with Weyland immediately telling him how superior we are because we're capable of both giving life (organic and synthetic) and create such beautiful pieces. When you start a conversation with an android with a (probably) superior intellect than us, some resemblance of free will and a very tepid sense of morals, you're in for a ride if you're not careful.

The viral video for Walter served as an awesome counterpart. Much more formal, cold and robotic. Couldn't be squeezed onto the movie for obvious reasons but I really enjoy these complementary little shorts.

I wouldn't call it a waste. The scene could've been alittle shorter though. It was good to see Guy again, and the birth of David was a cool idea. I just didn't care for the whole "why are we here" dialogue that took up the later portion of the scene. I was saying, "oh god, not this stuff again." And boy, did they nail that teapot lift right on the money. Had I looked away for a moment, I'd have sworn David was peeing in that poor mans drink.  :D

'Milk, father?'

"Bring me this pee, David. Bring me the pee!"

Quote from: Scorpio on May 01, 2018, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: 0321recon on May 01, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
It nicely set up David's story though...the 12 minute Prometheus bridge is what got sacrificed in the process. Due to that we don't know if David truly cared for Shaw, did he kill her before the bombing or was she asleep and awaken afterwards.

Scalia should had respected Scott and kept the crossing or at least moved the entire unedited sequence were we see David and Walter in Shaw's grave than what we got in the viral or in the film itself.

The Crossing does not belong in the movie because Shaw's story is over.  It's just a pointless cameo. 

The cut that exists is perfect and is the best cut.  The Evanus cut is a boring and overlong film with weird edits, imo.  But if you enjoy it, that's fine.

Thank you!  :D


But on topic, I love the opening scene. Perfect opening to the film, in my opinion. Seeing a younger Weyland was also pretty cool.

Quote from: Huggs on May 01, 2018, 10:06:41 PM
And boy, did they nail that teapot lift right on the money. Had I looked away for a moment, I'd have sworn David was peeing in that poor mans drink.  :D

Now you know why David was so eager to make Ms. Vickers a cup of tea after she manhandled him.

Quote from: SM on May 01, 2018, 10:33:37 PM
'Milk, father?'

Alittle cream with that sugar?  ;)

I like the scene, but if the movie had to be cut inside 2 hours it should have been chopped with that time put on the back end.

Ideally, keep the scene, but add 20 minutes on the movie split between Oram and the final ship.

Quote from: Evanus on May 02, 2018, 10:21:12 AM
But on topic, I love the opening scene. Perfect opening to the film, in my opinion. Seeing a younger Weyland was also pretty cool.

Yeah. The AC opening sets up David's character for the rest of the movie but also helps explain his relationship with Weyland in Prometheus.
Good stuff.

;)

I'll be honest. I just don't like it. I don't like anything they did with David in Covenant, though.

I felt what Covenant says of their relationship does not jive with what Prometheus showed us. It was ironically enough the subtlety of Prometheus that appealed to me with regards to David. His disdain for human grew slowly. It was a journey we took with him. I never got the impression that Weyland and David shared animosity at all in Prometheus. I got the impression David did feel a sense of morose over Weyland's line about his lack of a human soul.

Do you really think Weyland wouldn't have pulled the plug the moment David showed signs of rebellion? Putting myself in Weyland's shows there's no way I would have stood for it. Starts with the tea, ends with a magazine shoved down my throat. Nope.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 03, 2018, 11:25:20 PM
I'll be honest. I just don't like it. I don't like anything they did with David in Covenant, though.

I felt what Covenant says of their relationship does not jive with what Prometheus showed us. It was ironically enough the subtlety of Prometheus that appealed to me with regards to David. His disdain for human grew slowly. It was a journey we took with him. I never got the impression that Weyland and David shared animosity at all in Prometheus. I got the impression David did feel a sense of morose over Weyland's line about his lack of a human soul.

Do you really think Weyland wouldn't have pulled the plug the moment David showed signs of rebellion? Putting myself in Weyland's shows there's no way I would have stood for it. Starts with the tea, ends with a magazine shoved down my throat. Nope.

The beauty of holographic technology, less paper. That, and it's hard to choke somebody to death with an accordion.

QuoteDo you really think Weyland wouldn't have pulled the plug the moment David showed signs of rebellion?

He would.  And David knew it.  So he played the servant, knowing he would outlive his creator. 

Quote from: SM on May 03, 2018, 11:52:19 PM

QuoteDo you really think Weyland wouldn't have pulled the plug the moment David showed signs of rebellion?

He would.  And David knew it.  So he played the servant, knowing he would outlive his creator.

I just don't see it. Weyland is portrayed with such a strong ego and need for control that I can't see the character not immediately terminating David.

David could have been programed to actually serve Weyland. After Weylands death David was freed and not controlled by any other behaviorial inhibitors (they always were a bit twitchy).  He aslo had his head ripped off and went a long time without maintenance.

It it were as cut and dry as "David is programmed to serve" then the scene makes no sense. David shouldn't even be able to hesitate.

He knows he has to obey to avoid being switched off.

Quote from: SM on May 04, 2018, 01:11:16 AM
He knows he has to obey to avoid being switched off.

I get that SM. I'm saying he hesitated. If it was a matter of programming, hesitation doesn't even come into it.

Weyland has words with him over it. Weyland shouldn't stand for that kind of behavior for even a second, because that is not how that character had been depicted up to that point. He's one of the biggest control freaks ever.

I'm saying it would have been far more interesting to me had they gone with something more philosophical between the two that put David on the path he took. Similar to how Laurence of Arabia influenced and inspired David.  The scene started that way, but then it took a left turn into something that just didn't jive with how this relationship had been portrayed in Prometheus. David was closer to Weyland than his own daughter seemed to be, in Prometheus.

QuoteIf it was a matter of programming, hesitation doesn't even come into it.

I agree.  But I also believe Weyland's ego would dictate that he would rather let David know what his place is, rather than it being programmed.  Like 'you will obey because I made you and I am in charge; not because you don't have a choice'.

I think David was closer because Vickers was going to replace him after he died, and despite David being subservient, David embodied Weyland's original tilt at immortality.

Just having to serve Weyland wouldn't mean he wants to or would enjoy it. Hes still an AI, but he was still developed and programed by humans.

It would seem a little wreckless to have nothing to stop your android from murdering you in your sleep.

David valued his own existence.  Murdering Weyland would bring that to a swift end.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 04, 2018, 01:26:58 AM
If it was a matter of programming, hesitation doesn't even come into it.

Weyland has words with him over it. Weyland shouldn't stand for that kind of behavior for even a second, because that is not how that character had been depicted up to that point. He's one of the biggest control freaks ever.

That's not the way I see the Weyland character.
Yes, he likes to be in control (and overall he is in control) but he tolerates opposition from his associates, especially in a parent / child relationship.

* For instance Weyland's comments to Vickers. From "Prometheus";

QuotePeter Weyland: After all your vigorous attempts to stop me from coming here, I'm surprised to see you...

Peter Weyland: Very negative way of looking at things.

- For Weyland, David is like a son.

QuoteThere's a man sitting with you today, his name is David. He is the closest thing to a son I will ever had,

(Prometheus)

* Weyland doesn't want a mindless slave as a "son".
He wants a clever, creative android who will be useful.
Such as with finding the living Engineer on LV-223.

* Weyland was never in any direct danger from David.
Even when David hints that he might want Weyland to be dead, he admits that with Weyland's programming, he is not free to do what he wants.

QuoteElizabeth Shaw: What happens when Weyland's not around to program you anymore?
David: I suppose I'd be free...
David: 'Want'; not a concept I'm familiar with. That being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?

(Prometheus)

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 04, 2018, 01:26:58 AM
I'm saying it would have been far more interesting to me had they gone with something more philosophical between the two...

With all the androids in film or the betrayer characters in science fiction movies, I can't find one that is more interesting than David, maybe just as good but not better; (that includes Ash, Data, C3PO, the androids in Spielberg's "AI", with human betrayers, Cypher or with just a computer, HAL).
* The opening sequence in "Covenant" has a giant statue of the Biblical David.
- Weyland obviously has pretensions to be godlike.
- David chooses to play Wagner's  "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla".
- David is making a statement about himself which is just as pretentious as his creator.

That's an interesting conflict.
Who will be the master in the long run?
The wealthy, controlling human? 
Or the clever android?

* In human terms David is a sociopath. But he plays the role of obedient helper very well,
biding his time for years until he has the opportunity to strike.
- Yet, David at the same time seems to have really cared for Shaw, even though he tortured and killed her.
It's a deranged mind similar to Norman Bates in Psycho.

Interesting stuff imo.

;)

I actually liked the intro scene to Covenant, it was interesting but I do wonder that if this scene wasn't in, would the pacing of the film be better?

I am curious why the film had to be on the 2 hr mark, films these days can go right up to three hours with no issue. I see no reason the film couldn't be longer to even the pacing out.

I also think David was closer to Weyland than Vickers, its been awhile since I have seen Promethues but was Vickers jealous at all by David? I know Peter was trusting David more with the tasks he was doing and David did cut Vickers off, perhaps on Weyland's orders.

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 05, 2018, 11:49:08 AM
I am curious why the film had to be on the 2 hr mark, films these days can go right up to three hours with no issue. I see no reason the film couldn't be longer to even the pacing out.

Ridley Scott likes his science fiction movies to be about two hours long. Why? I think because they are slower paced and he doesn't want the audience to get bored.
While some fast paced action movies have been very successful at the box office going with an almost three hour run time, going over two hours can result in a box office problem for some slower paced films.
The recent Blade Runner 2049 is an example of that. A good 2 hour 43 minute movie which failed at the box office.
And it being too long could be seen as a major problem with it financially.

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 05, 2018, 11:49:08 AM
I also think David was closer to Weyland than Vickers, its been awhile since I have seen Promethues but was Vickers jealous at all by David? I know Peter was trusting David more with the tasks he was doing and David did cut Vickers off, perhaps on Weyland's orders.

Agreed that Vickers seemed irritated with David being the favored "son" who also was told Weyland's secret plans while Vickers was kept in the dark.

;)

Quote from: The Cruentus on May 05, 2018, 11:49:08 AM
I am curious why the film had to be on the 2 hr mark, films these days can go right up to three hours with no issue. I see no reason the film couldn't be longer to even the pacing out.

It just seems to be Ridley's (lol almost wrote Weyland here) magic number. I think it's been spoken about in some of the interviews that have to do with editing.

QuoteI also think David was closer to Weyland than Vickers, its been awhile since I have seen Promethues but was Vickers jealous at all by David? I know Peter was trusting David more with the tasks he was doing and David did cut Vickers off, perhaps on Weyland's orders.

That would seem to be the case. I got the impression he valued David more than he did Vickers.

Personally, I liked the scene. I think it sets up David's motivation very well for Covenant. I'd definitely be interested in seeing the longer version of the Crossing but I think they made the right choice with keeping the white room sequence for the prologue.

I love the opening.

The Crossing prologue didn't look all that well-conceived or filmed. It seemed like promo material rather than a proper part of the film--I know they did film it for inclusion in the film, and possibly more footage of Shaw, so it might just be a matter of how it was edited for the prologue--so based on what we've seen, the opening is better as is.

ALTHOUGH I would have preferred a variation on the original prologue script we've all read. I wouldn't have David just snap Shaw's neck--I would have preferred something more ambiguous that then makes the discovery of Shaw's corpse have more impact later.

I am not a fan of philosophizing but the scene wasn't too long or out of place. Also, they found a good enough reason to include Guy Pearce not in shitty old-age makeup.

Quote from: shawsbaby on May 08, 2018, 12:18:30 PM
I love the opening.

The Crossing prologue didn't look all that well-conceived or filmed. It seemed like promo material rather than a proper part of the film--I know they did film it for inclusion in the film, and possibly more footage of Shaw, so it might just be a matter of how it was edited for the prologue--so based on what we've seen, the opening is better as is.

ALTHOUGH I would have preferred a variation on the original prologue script we've all read. I wouldn't have David just snap Shaw's neck--I would have preferred something more ambiguous that then makes the discovery of Shaw's corpse have more impact later.

If she was alive to that late of a point before the arrival of the Covenant crew, I could imagine the prologue was shot with her in cryo when David arrived in Paradise. 

No. Totally loved the scene and wished it were longer in movie.

All this talk about Shaw being dead on a table is better than Shaw being dead in a chair.

I would have preferred Shaw not dead at all.

It's essential. Not only does it give you extra info on Weyland's whole outlook on life ( and justify the old man make-up of Weyland in Prometheus) but it gives a lot of back story on David that completely changes your perception of him in Prometheus. The scene alone makes a huge difference to Prometheus and is the perfect start to its sequel.

Waste of time. All of the disdain and disinterest David displays in his role and his master is perfectly established in Prometheus.

They should have just put the crossing there instead.

Quote from: SiL on Mar 06, 2019, 01:25:16 PM
Waste of time. All of the disdain and disinterest David displays in his role and his master is perfectly established in Prometheus.

I agree it was unnecessary, but it was well done. I'd have put it elsewhere in the film, possibly right when Walter asks what weyland was like.

I'd not use it for the opening of the movie.

Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 06, 2019, 01:28:58 PM
They should have just put the crossing there instead.

The whole movie should've been the crossing.

Prologue and epilogue are my favourite parts of the movie. In the first one David is a slave while in the last one he becomes a master. Those two scenes bond movie together and show us who's the main character of Covenant.

Let's be honest: Covenant is David's story. So for me it's very logical to start with David and Weyland scene. It explains some of David's motivations later in the movie. And just visually scene is great in my opinion.

Quote from: Kradan on Mar 18, 2019, 10:02:18 PM
Let's be honest: Covenant is David's story. So for me it's very logical to start with David and Weyland scene. It explains some of David's motivations later in the movie. And just visually scene is great in my opinion.

The only problem is that we were already aware that David was an android and Weyland was a dick. It was beautifully shot, but redundant given the first movie. Would've been better served in Prometheus.

"Masterful."

The rest? No... first impressions;
"The prologue's so excellent." I thought; "masterpiece" -a premature evaluation...
Prometheus, fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

For the Prometheus unfamiliar?
Or
The people electing to reject Prometheus, it's perfect.

Does anyone know which year this opening scene is suppose to take place? Need a date to put on my timeline.

Circa 2040, judging by the TED Talk.

I think the white room scene is set later than the TED talk. Can't remember offhand but I have the vague feeling the date is mentioned in the novel. I'm at work though, and my novel is at home.

Must be after the TED talk because Peter looks older. He looks on his 50s, so that would be around the 2040s. There is no date on the novel. That was the day David was activated right? Meaning his birth year. And he was the first David 8 model. So that would be before the David 8 models were deployed.

I think the white room scene is one of the best scenes in the entire franchise.

Definitely.

Regardless of opinion this always make me more appreciative: https://youtu.be/PXIupM277lc

That was awesome to watch.

Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 25, 2019, 01:57:54 PM
Must be after the TED talk because Peter looks older. He looks on his 50s, so that would be around the 2040s. There is no date on the novel. That was the day David was activated right? Meaning his birth year. And he was the first David 8 model. So that would be before the David 8 models were deployed.

David is 60 years old at the time of the end of Prometheus, the year of our Lord..2094. The 60 year gap is idented on screen between AC's opening scene and the Crossing that's spliced in by the Chaos fanedit of Covenant so 2034...sounds about right

The what now?

Its one of the fanedits of AC. Chaos edit puts the crossing 59 years after the opening David / Weyland scene, while the Evanus edit puts 60 years after. I noticed but that would make Peter be on his forties, due to him looking older than that I got in doubt of the date.

60's a nice round number.

It's one of the best scenes in the film.

Indeed it is.

I just wish we had more Guy Pearce. Would've loved more Weyland.

Quote from: Frosty Venom on Mar 27, 2019, 08:31:17 AM
It's one of the best scenes in the film.

Agreed.

;)