By no means do I really understand the science behind this, but something just doesn't add up for me when thinking about the Engineers and Humans relationship.
So, the Engineers and Human Beings are a complete DNA match from what I understand.
The Engineers came to Earth and sacrificed one of themselves to start life, I do believe.
Now, If they seeded the beginning of life on Earth, doesn't that mean everything would be related to them, or a direct DNA match? Which would not make sense because as humans we aren't genetically related (or barely) to other organisms we share this planet with - aside from these 'Engineers'. And if Humans are a one hundred percent match - or close to it - wouldn't that mean we have gone through no genetic mutations to maintain such 'purity'. Meaning that the human species would immediatley have come to be after the Engineers sacrifice with little evoultion in between now and then. But then the theory of evoultion is thrown out the window and it is more of the Adam and Eve thing - maybe that's what Ridley wanted?
Or was life already in motion on Earth when the Engineers arrived, and the humans - sprouting from the Engineers - became an Alien species that was introduced to Earth, meaning we never evolved here to begin with until after the Engineers sacrifice?
F*** me, I'm confused. Someone unwind this...
It could be that the decomposition of the Engineer created millions of "seeds" for life, each diverging into something else. Like it starts out as bacteria and single-celled organisms and moved on to dinosaurs and fish and rabbits and monkeys and humans, eventually.
I wouldn't think too hard on it, though.
But then we would all be genetically related. And through the process of it 'evolving' humans would somehow have to be resilient to change to keep that direct DNA match to engineers
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
What about Mr. DNA?
The idea was that the engineers had been enhancing the human species through genetics. Likely for hundred of thousands of years.
However in reality we are very much more closely related to everything else on Earth that you might think. I believe we even share around 50% of our dna with bacteria. Where as the difference between us and our closest primate relative is just 1%. Yea the difference between building rockets and not being able to create fire is just a 1% difference. What would happen if we evolved another 1% from current humans? Time travel? Who knows. The one big difference is that human being dna is much more refined. There is less junk encoded in our dna. If I recall correctly we have about half the dna of a chimpanzee. This efficiency is very likely the reason we were able to develop a superior intellect. It's wholly more complicated than this but that the simple theory.
So in movie it is possible that the engineer just "perfected" the human race through time.
Also there is great variation in human beings throughout the world but this isn't because we have different dna from each other but due to environmental conditions. Things such as skin color, height and eye brow thickness for example.
The engineers are white, tall and bald with large black eyes is because they are a space faring race.
The bottom line is that the engineers created humans for some reason and then decided that they didn't need us. Ridley hints that they wanted to kill us because we were assholes. But it could have been for any number of reasons. Maybe we were an accident, alien host farm, army that was no longer needed?
Quote
It's only a movie.
That needs explaining.
"We come from them."
Seems just about as easy as explaining how the egg got on the Sulaco.
"Insert egg here."
If you like.
It's just a fictional alternative explanation for how homo sapiens got here.
Well this is science fiction we're talking about, so yes. But in regards to the storyline of Prometheus it just seems like a plot hole.
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 12, 2018, 03:16:42 AM
Well this is science fiction we're talking about, so yes. But in regards to the storyline of Prometheus it just seems like a plot hole.
I thought the plot for Prometheus had more holes than Clyde Barrow?
Thats the first time I've seen that analogy, but I can't disagree!
Which plot holes are these?
The engineers creating mankind is plausible science fiction. The engineers and their existence is also well thought out even if a lot of it is unexplained. So I don't get where all the plot hole complaints come from.
Many of them stem from people who don't know what a plot hole actually is.
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
How does one just seed human life?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 01:59:55 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
How does one just seed human life?
Seems like an all or nothing deal. Maybe they just gave it a push in the right direction ?
If everything else fails, option 2) is always there ;)
Option 2 is a lame answer. We're on a fan forum to speculate such topics. Otherwise you could say that for any of the movies.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 01:59:55 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
How does one just seed human life?
1) Drink the black bubble tea.
2) Fall off a waterfall.
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 01:59:55 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
How does one just seed human life?
1) Drink the black bubble tea.
2) Fall off a waterfall.
And magically humans sprout from what? Chimpanzees drinking the water? Good thing the ostriches drank somewhere else! :P
I believe it was that Humans would have stayed chimps if it weren't for the engineers.
Ah, we're going to run with that? Okay then, I just created your answer!
And the chimps that didn't drink there, they stayed chimps.
And all the rest of the creatures that drank there, only got irritable bowel syndrome!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 07:57:41 PM
Ah, we're going to run with that? Okay then, I just created your answer!
And the chimps that didn't drink there, they stayed chimps.
And all the rest of the creatures that drank there, only got irritable bowel syndrome!
I think it mutated all creatures slightly.
only in case of the chimp, Humans were the result.
But it didn't mutate all chimps? :P
Don't tell me you're going to ask if Humans came from apes, why are apes still around?
No, Humans didn't evolve from chimps, gorillas, or even orangutans. We just shared a common ancestor. But that is the study of human evolution.
I'm asking how did the Engineers do it with Chimps, since you decided to agree with my silly statement and go there.
Milburn's mind is blown by all this.
Imagin the evolution of species like a tree branching out to the top. We all share the some basis, the Tree trunk, as life evolves new branches grow, forking in different directions, diverging, some dying of, new branches gowing out of the old ones different. For example chimp-branch and human-branch would have a common bigger branch from which they both are growing.
So the engineer disolving either kickstarted the whole tree, life itself on the planet, or he manipulated one of the branches to grow in the human direction, or it taped the human branch on an already existing "life tree".
It think the kickstarting version makes the most sense.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 08:30:23 PM
No, Humans didn't evolve from chimps, gorillas, or even orangutans. We just shared a common ancestor. But that is the study of human evolution.
I'm asking how did the Engineers do it with Chimps, since you decided to agree with my silly statement and go there.
the chimps infected by the goo got a slight edge over other chimps and eventually human?
If the engineers kickstarted life then wouldn't we have similar DNA to anything else on this planet since it all came from the engineers.
Yet humans and Engineers DNA is supposed to be an exact match after all these years of evolution.
Maybe life was already in motion on Earth and the engineers DNA and black goo made multiple mutations. But somehow human DNA must resist any change to be exactly that of engineers.
There might have been life on Earth when the engineers dna bombed it but I think everything started with them. Whatever life was on Earth was destroyed to make room for the engineers life experiment. Then for what ever reason people happened.
People might have been inevitable by design though. Remember David's "resurrection" theory. That the people of Earth are trying to start over. Perhaps the dna bombing of Earth was a start over for the engineer as well.
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 12, 2018, 08:45:23 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 08:30:23 PM
No, Humans didn't evolve from chimps, gorillas, or even orangutans. We just shared a common ancestor. But that is the study of human evolution.
I'm asking how did the Engineers do it with Chimps, since you decided to agree with my silly statement and go there.
the chimps infected by the goo got a slight edge over other chimps and eventually human?
Yeah why not.
Except the ones who were hanging around that big black monolith thing. They did alright too.
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2018, 10:36:40 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 12, 2018, 08:45:23 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 08:30:23 PM
No, Humans didn't evolve from chimps, gorillas, or even orangutans. We just shared a common ancestor. But that is the study of human evolution.
I'm asking how did the Engineers do it with Chimps, since you decided to agree with my silly statement and go there.
the chimps infected by the goo got a slight edge over other chimps and eventually human?
Yeah why not.
Except the ones who were hanging around that big black monolith thing. They did alright too.
Well it looks like we have a consensus then. Our works here is done.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/123HQLltsOPt7i/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c119a3f797662396bb89450)
Quote from: TheKurgan on Dec 12, 2018, 08:44:52 PM
Imagin the evolution of species like a tree branching out to the top. We all share the some basis, the Tree trunk, as life evolves new branches grow, forking in different directions, diverging, some dying of, new branches gowing out of the old ones different. For example chimp-branch and human-branch would have a common bigger branch from which they both are growing.
So the engineer disolving either kickstarted the whole tree, life itself on the planet, or he manipulated one of the branches to grow in the human direction, or it taped the human branch on an already existing "life tree".
It think the kickstarting version makes the most sense.
What? Our research is rock solid. You dare challenge our chimp theory?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/8nhgZZMKUicpi/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c1199326e747a51777f23a2)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BOTE2ODM2NTktYWQ4YS00ZDU0LWI5NDQtNjE0OTA1MDQyOTA4XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyODY2Njk4ODk@._V1_.jpg)
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
The final film is ambiguous, but you can find an amphibian creature in the storyboards; as the culmination of the black goo's chain of events. Of course, nothing of this is canon; but rather suggest that at some point, they were thinking in turning the Engineer into the common ancestor of almost every land animal; or at very least the creator of such a common ancestor.
(https://i.imgur.com/7heaQi5.jpg)
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
2) It's only a movie.
and no even a hard science fiction movie.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 12, 2018, 01:59:55 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 11, 2018, 10:16:13 PM
1) They 'seeded' humans - not all life.
2) It's only a movie.
How does one just seed human life?
1) Drink the black bubble tea.
2) Fall off a waterfall.
And magically humans sprout from what? Chimpanzees drinking the water? Good thing the ostriches drank somewhere else! :P
Actually IIRC, Jon Spaihts' original draft has the transformation of an ape-like creature after having being injected with Engineer's DNA by the "black scarabs" (a prototypical black goo).
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 13, 2018, 12:37:53 AM
Actually IIRC, Jon Spaihts' original draft has an ape-like-creature being injected with Engineer's DNA by the "black scarabs" (a prototypical black goo).
Huh. Well that would certainly have been a movie-logical way to seed only humans - not all life, I guess. Creator born, yet with a science experiment aftertaste.
I think it was some human ancestors. Something like the Neanderthal's. They get bit by the scarab creatures the Engineers used to disperse the DNA.
Also we don't if the planet shown in the beginning that was seeded was earth...or was it? I can't remember for certain.
I don't think it was stated that it was earth. At least not in the movie.
It's not stated that it's Earth and Ridley says on the commentary that it's not necessarily Earth.
I was sure I'd addressed this on Strange Shapes years ago. I found this:
QuoteArthur Max, in Prometheus: The Art of the Film, did note that the Engineers "play the role of God in the universe" and "have visited Earth many times over the millenia and given Mankind genetic upgrades, both physical and intellectual."
...
"The idea there is that it's part of the culture of the Engineers," said Arthur Max, "this race of interplanetary visitors who have given us upgrades –mentally and physically– over the millennium."
...
In Jon Spaihts' script it is revealed that the Engineers return to Earth every thousand years to 'update' their creations. "I was analysing historical changes in human DNA," the script reveals through the character of Watts/Shaw. "I found the same pattern. Every eleven centuries, a pulse of new information in the genome of the human race. All over the world. Evolution can't do that. Something was changing us. Changing the DNA of our species."
This would have clarified why humans are so genetically close to the Engineers, whilst our Earthly cousins, such as other primate species, have taken another evolutionary path. Essentially, what makes the human race so unique among Earth-life is merely a helping hand.
From these articles: https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/the-engineer-mythos/
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/engineer-architecture/
They might be helpful. I wrote them years ago though.
TY Valaquen.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 13, 2018, 10:00:00 AM
I think it was some human ancestors. Something like the Neanderthal's. They get bit by the scarab creatures the Engineers used to disperse the DNA.
Yes, now that I think about it, it was a more evolved hominid; and it was a female. Also, this prehistoric hominid started to change to become more Engineer-like, after being bitten by the scarabs.
Quote from: Valaquen on Dec 13, 2018, 07:52:31 PM
I was sure I'd addressed this on Strange Shapes years ago. I found this:
QuoteArthur Max, in Prometheus: The Art of the Film, did note that the Engineers "play the role of God in the universe" and "have visited Earth many times over the millenia and given Mankind genetic upgrades, both physical and intellectual."
...
"The idea there is that it's part of the culture of the Engineers," said Arthur Max, "this race of interplanetary visitors who have given us upgrades –mentally and physically– over the millennium."
...
In Jon Spaihts' script it is revealed that the Engineers return to Earth every thousand years to 'update' their creations. "I was analysing historical changes in human DNA," the script reveals through the character of Watts/Shaw. "I found the same pattern. Every eleven centuries, a pulse of new information in the genome of the human race. All over the world. Evolution can't do that. Something was changing us. Changing the DNA of our species."
This would have clarified why humans are so genetically close to the Engineers, whilst our Earthly cousins, such as other primate species, have taken another evolutionary path. Essentially, what makes the human race so unique among Earth-life is merely a helping hand.
From these articles: https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/the-engineer-mythos/
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/engineer-architecture/
They might be helpful. I wrote them years ago though.
The content is highly reliable. Keep it up, dude.
Perfect, thanks for sharing. I feel closure.
Strange that something illogical like engineers and humans having almost the same DNA while other species on earth especially primates, from which some were our ancestors, have much more biological difference in their DNA to us, gets much more acceptance than the DNA upgrading in the new Predator movie. Both are scientifically wrong but i think the Engineer seeding issue is even more so than than the science in Shane Black's Predator movie.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Dec 17, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Strange that something illogical like engineers and humans having almost the same DNA while other species on earth especially primates, from which some were our ancestors, have much more biological difference in their DNA to us, gets much more acceptance than the DNA upgrading in the new Predator movie. Both are scientifically wrong but i think the Engineer seeding issue is even more so than than the science in Shane Black's Predator movie.
In The Predator they did basically the equivalent of me juicing up on tiger DNA and getting claws and striped fur after that.
That needs way more suspension of disbelieve to buy, than the seeding engineers. At least for me. Also I think there is not much difference in our DNA makeup and that of modern apes.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Dec 17, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Dec 17, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Strange that something illogical like engineers and humans having almost the same DNA while other species on earth especially primates, from which some were our ancestors, have much more biological difference in their DNA to us, gets much more acceptance than the DNA upgrading in the new Predator movie. Both are scientifically wrong but i think the Engineer seeding issue is even more so than than the science in Shane Black's Predator movie.
In The Predator they did basically the equivalent of me juicing up on tiger DNA and getting claws and striped fur after that.
That needs way more suspension of disbelieve to buy, than the seeding engineers. At least for me.
It's vice versa for me, because we don't know Predator biology well enough to come to conclusions and we also don't know anything about the technology used for the upgrading. Like how the liquid is made, and what it consists of, that they inject into their bodies.
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Dec 17, 2018, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Dec 17, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: Doctor Ash on Dec 17, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
Strange that something illogical like engineers and humans having almost the same DNA while other species on earth especially primates, from which some were our ancestors, have much more biological difference in their DNA to us, gets much more acceptance than the DNA upgrading in the new Predator movie. Both are scientifically wrong but i think the Engineer seeding issue is even more so than than the science in Shane Black's Predator movie.
In The Predator they did basically the equivalent of me juicing up on tiger DNA and getting claws and striped fur after that.
That needs way more suspension of disbelieve to buy, than the seeding engineers. At least for me.
It's vice versa for me, because we don't know Predator biology well enough to come to conclusions and we also don't know anything about the technology used for the upgrading. Like how the liquid is made, and what it consists of, that they inject into their bodies.
I all comes down to personel preference were your limit is with movie science.
Sure, maybe the Predators have some magic liquid, that formed the body according to an upgraded DNA blueprint that incorporated desired traits from prey DNA. Engineers don't have a monopol on magic goo after all ;)
I think most people, me included, didn't have a problem with the unrealistic science, but that the whole DNA upgrading did not fit with how the Predators were portrayed before. Or at least not how people imagined them.
I got the impression from Predators that they were 'upgrading' themselves- possibly genetically - between hunts if one ever was defeated.
"Anyway, every once in a while, one of us kills one of them. And, let me tell you, that's when they get real interested. See, they learn quick. They adapt. They develop a whole new set of skills. They come back the next season in threes, always in threes. Their armor might've changed, or their weapons have changed, or their tactics have changed. It's amazing. So, it's like evolution. They're trying to make themselves into better killers."
And I'm not sure where this "almost match" comes from with Engineer and human DNA. The film just says "match".
(Regarding Prometheus "DNA MATCH")
Because it has to be storytelling shorthand
in some fashion- perhaps for DNA structure.
As no two individuals,
nevermind species have identical DNA.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2018, 08:09:21 PM
I got the impression from Predators that they were 'upgrading' themselves- possibly genetically - between hunts if one ever was defeated.
"Anyway, every once in a while, one of us kills one of them. And, let me tell you, that's when they get real interested. See, they learn quick. They adapt. They develop a whole new set of skills. They come back the next season in threes, always in threes. Their armor might've changed, or their weapons have changed, or their tactics have changed. It's amazing. So, it's like evolution. They're trying to make themselves into better killers."
Yep, that's exactly what it is. Everytime a Super Predator was bested by their prey, once it was finally killed, they studied the dead prey and would use their dna to genetically modify their own. The script was even a little more on the nose about it.
I've also had this same confusion behind the Prometheus creation story. I look at it like this though, The Engineer DNA in combination with this form of the Black Pathogen and Earth's primordial soup allowed for the probability of an Engineer like species to eventually evolve alongside whatever other life was to take hold on.
Relating to Predators and The Predator DNA upgrading, I guess some secretive scientific society of Bad Bloods use DNA from deadly Alien species to upgrade themselves and The Fugitive was either one of them experimenting with human DNA before betraying this society or was a captured traditional 'hunter' Predator who was being experimented on.
Could take this allll the way into fanwank territory and suggest that the black ooze was created by the predators or that predators are actually an offshoot of the engineers.
Note that I'm not suggesting I believe this, because it's stupid, but these options could easily be worked in.
Predators take DNA from creatures that they think will help them get bigger and badder? Bingo, dino DNA Alien DNA becomes black ooze. Engineers then just happen to come across this black ooze and use it for their science magic.
Or the other, weirder option. Engineer goes rogue and decides it wants to hunt things. Using its knowledge of DNA it upgrades itself and becomes a predator. Others follow and soon there's a whole faction of engineers who have become the predator race. This is how they know to upgrade themselves using a magic DNA altering goo - they've already been doing it for thousands of years! :o
I hadn't realised just how similar the DNA serum in The Predator was to the black ooze until right now writing this post. And if I've thought of it, maybe Fox has (or whatever will become of Fox). Considering that they just released The Predator, maybe they're foolish enough to make this happen. Predators are Engineers, you heard it here first.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2018, 08:09:21 PM
And I'm not sure where this "almost match" comes from with Engineer and human DNA. The film just says "match".
It's just that, it's a match. We have the same DNA as them. They're no different than the difference between man and women, black and white; short, fat and hairy and tall, green and bald. If someone were to f**k one of them they'd be some off spring in the near future.
If evolution declared a green person was best adapted for survival we'd probably turn green.
That's how I read it.