What i think is similar between Covenant and Alien3 that when these movies came out many fans were very pissed off. But as time goes you can find more and more people saying that Alien3 not so bad and grew for them. And kinda the same for the Covenant. I see a lot of common in tone and all that nihilistic stuff between Covenant and Alien3. I myself was very dissapointed after watching Covenant in cinema (there's a lot of marketing and ads guilty actually) but now i find it really good movie and like to rewatch it from time to time.
So, what do you think?
In terms of being equals? No, I don't.
In terms of their reception being assessed as more positive over time?
Yes, but only to a degree because unlike Alien³ there are things concretely wrong with character behaviour in Alien Covenant, that divorces it's tier of quality from the original three films; but on every other level it's a cut above Resurrection, Prometheus and the AVP spin-offs. The soundtrack alone but much like Resurrection it does indeed have a wobbly third act.
It's really funny, because it's a case of the the prequel that cried wolf, because with Prometheus' initial reception there was a reaction of "Oh yeah, parts of it are stupid- but it also has this really interesting subtext, look at the crystal in the tomb man! Blah Blah Blah." Which you realise is all a crock of shit when you watch "Furious Gods" and look at Damon Lindelof's career of mystery boxes and putting things in Prometheus with the intention to intrigue, but not actually mean anything.
Where-as Covenant is actually that film, the arthouse Alien, Blade Runner mix- with stupid humans because that's not what the film's interested in- it's interested in the creator and creation dynamic. It's actually the Alien film full of subtext written by an actual playright, John Logan that everyone was initially fooled into thinking Prometheus was the first time round.
So now that we have had discussions and insight since 2012 with "Prometheus" and then later with "Covenant," I guess I'm confused with why Riddles even wanted to start the Alien franchise/story up again. What was the purpose or new direction with the prequels/sequels?
- (yet to be answered) Explain how/why the derelict on LV-426 crashed there and who the pilot was...the character Dallas in the original film was wrong and the Space Jockey's body was not fossilized
- (answered) Explore more of the Space Jockey/Engineers...no...we are them; they are us; they created us and wanted to kill us; David killed them...the end
- (answered) See more of the big/original "Alien" in the film...no...according to Riddles the "Alien" is "cooked" or washed up
- (sort of answered) "Defective David" did everything and will put humanity in its place...beware artificial intelligence (AI)
So the third film will either provide the outcome for "Defective David" or explain how the derelict ended up crashed on LV-426 and hopefully who the pilot was...or answer both of these questions?
So what was the new direction with the prequels/sequels and why Riddles started up the franchise films again...anybody....anybody? I'm confused as to what I was supposed to get out of these new films again...to answer the question abut the derelict on LV-426 and warn us that our own creations might end up killing us because we treat them badly? Was any of that presented clearly in "Prometheus" and "Covenant?" Did I miss something? I might need a film to answer the question about the origins of the derelict on LV-426, but I don't think I needed a film (and definitely not two films) for the other things.
Step 1, Forget Prometheus.
Step 2, Alien Covenant.
Step 3,
The Alien is the "perfect" A.I.
Capable of reproduction.
Step 4, Profit.
After Alien R. and the AVP movies... yeah Alien 3 isn't that bad. But still is considered worse than the previous movies by most of the fanbase. I suppose knowing how worse things can be makes you appreciate the previous movies more. AVP was less hated after AVPR.
I appreciate Predators now more than before watching The Predator. Its still have issues but I guess I will take what I can get.
Maybe if the next movie is really bad, Covenant will be more appreciated. Things can always get worse.
Alien³ isn't bad, even in a white room without the context of the other entries.
Prometheus, The Predator, AVP, AVPR and arguably Resurrection still are.
Covenant? Eh... Maybe?
Predators, mediocrity incarnate.
I dunno, I feel like the prequels have already been condemned too hard by the internet. I don't think many people will look back and change their opinion. Perhaps they'll be forgotten. Lost in time, like tears in the rain. :P
Like the AVP movies? :laugh:
Alien 3 > Covenant
Agreed.
Human characterisation is stronger in Alien 3, and the score is God-tier, but there are structural/technical flaws, Covenant is a better made film overall.
I disagree, vehemently- obviously.
Fassbender's performance alone and the thematic richness raises it above Alien 3 for me. It's far more interesting and dynamic from sets, environments, set-pieces, etc. Love 3 but that non-sequitur egg... ;D
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 06, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
Human characterisation is stronger in Alien 3, and the score is God-tier, but there are structural/technical flaws, Covenant is a better made film overall.
This.
Alien3 is just a bad remake of the first one. They had all these great scripts to choose from and they chose the one with monks on a wooden planet, which eventually got changed to a prison planet. That's asking for trouble.
Hey, I'm more than willing to give Covenant it's fair shake. More than many.
But that's crossing a line. :-X
Covenant is much better structured and paced and just more accomplished overall.
However Alien 3 will continue to be generally more highly regarded due to people deifying the Special Edition, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 06, 2019, 11:13:55 PM
Alien3 is just a bad remake of the first one.
In that it's one Alien and some civilians, yes.
In literally any other aspect, no.
Quote from: SM on Feb 06, 2019, 11:20:10 PM
Covenant is much better structured and paced and just more accomplished overall.
However Alien 3 will continue to be generally more highly regarded due to people deifying the Special Edition,
despite all evidence my opinion to the contrary.
You couldn't resist. :laugh:
SM has a calling.
Quote from: SM on Feb 06, 2019, 11:20:11 PM
Covenant is much better structured and paced and just more accomplished overall.
Covenant's third act it's its biggest flaw. Pacing is rushed and it doesn't fit into overall
painting, however I really like last scene with David and Daniels. If only third act took place within Engineer's citadel instead on the ship and pacing was slower and more dense then movie would benefit from it. If you introduce nightmarish setup (citadel) you should stick to it to the very end. Use it as much as possible. Don't waste it. And it's been wasted.
Another flaw (among many) is not enough focus on David's laboratory which is probably the best and most interesting thing about this movie. Like with citadel, it's been wasted. It should have been given more screen time, more exploration and more dialog between David and Oram. If you have golden goose make use of it.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 06, 2019, 11:21:40 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 06, 2019, 11:20:10 PM
Covenant is much better structured and paced and just more accomplished overall.
However Alien 3 will continue to be generally more highly regarded due to people deifying the Special Edition,
despite all evidence my opinion to the contrary.
You couldn't resist. :laugh:
It had to be done.
And my opinion is the only evidence you need.
:laugh:
Agreed Ingwar.
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 06, 2019, 11:13:55 PM
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 06, 2019, 06:47:27 PM
Human characterisation is stronger in Alien 3, and the score is God-tier, but there are structural/technical flaws, Covenant is a better made film overall.
This.
Alien3 is just a bad remake of the first one.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2019, 12:09:31 AM
...my opinion is the only evidence you need.
Hearsay and Heresy. I declare a mistrial.
A lot of people desperately want Alien 3 to be some kind of misunderstood masterpiece. It isn't. The whole movie was doomed from the start and they ended up with a bad remake of the first movie. They whole controversy that happened during production is more interesting than the final product.
Quote from: Ingwar on Feb 07, 2019, 12:08:50 AM
Covenant's third act it's its biggest flaw.
Covenant's third act is basically Alien 3's third act but without the pacing.
Granted Covenant's 3rd act's a little sloppy but not to any significant degree, it ends on such an utterly misanthropic, Wagnerian triumph of bleakness that is so refreshing to see. It's funny, there were many that thought there was too much time spent with David and Walter ha, would have loved more time in David's rape castle of horrors myself but you know, bums on seats and all that. It's quite an accomplished film on many levels, just got to get more juicy human characterisation happening.
Quote from: Stitch on Feb 07, 2019, 10:53:47 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on Feb 07, 2019, 12:08:50 AM
Covenant's third act it's its biggest flaw.
Covenant's third act is basically Alien 3's third act but without the pacing.
"John? Ridley. Yeah, the third act. Yeah, it needs more bald guys running around tunnels that exist only for them run down in the dark saying "f**k" a lot. No, no, tomorrow morning's fine. Alright bye."
Covenant like Prometheus as what was presented in the cinema sit below Alien 3
However, certain extended fan cuts like the Chaos editions and or the Evanus edits elevate them just behind the first two. They could repair the reputation of these prequels quite a lot with a director's cut adding the 30-40 mins per film left out
Nah. SM and I are rowing this boat all the way to juicy land.
...all the rest of you pussies can sit it out too. Me and SM will do all the fighting. :laugh: :D
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 07, 2019, 10:34:28 AM
A lot of people desperately want Alien 3 to be some kind of misunderstood masterpiece.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LV426/comments/amqfx3/alien_3_all_right_its_time_someone_finally_said/
698+
No desperation. (:
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 07, 2019, 10:34:27 AM
A lot of people desperately want Alien 3 to be some kind of misunderstood masterpiece.
I doubt David Fincher will ever see his movie like that.
& Ridley Scott thought Prometheus' Blade Runner's equal.
The absolute mad lad. Did Ridley ever compared Prometheus to ALIEN?
I don't believe so, said something along the lines of "You don't need to wait forty years to write about this one, it's all here."
Reddit is mostly utter shite honestly. Although I do think Alien 3 is pretty good. But a flawed masterpiece? Eh, I dunno.
There are a lot of basic peeps at r/LV426, though, some threads are just awful. :laugh:
I've found there are a couple of basic peeps, Sin_Researcher's a brain-dead Donald Trump
fanatic that makes the five same post over and over. But I think the majority's aight,
often your mileage will vary depending upon what day you login.
Quote from: Evanus on Feb 07, 2019, 05:01:11 PM
Although I do think Alien 3 is pretty good. But a flawed masterpiece? Eh, I dunno.
Yeah, it's just a masterpiece really. ;D
I don't see how it's a masterpiece by any measure or with any qualifier.
I don't think it's a masterpiece either, but then- the only one in the series I would award that title to is Alien,
both Aliens and Alien³ are just excellent flawed films.
ALIENS flawed? I can see maybe in regards to the creature, as I thought it was shown better in ALIEN.
And y'know, the whole comedy of errors, endless Newt screams, the Gateway nightmare makes me roll my eyes everytime I have to sit through it. And just generally I have a distaste for what I would call Cameronisms, such as the whole family unit stuff. Ripley not being torn in half when the Queen's got a hold of her leg, an easy fix if the Queen was holding onto the ladder instead and tore away a portion of it falling into space.
I think the first two films are masterpieces
I enjoy Alien3 but consider it a terribly flawed film. I think the film had potential to be something truly great. Unfortunately it's too much of a mess to consider it a classic or a masterpiece. I rank Alien3, Covenant, and Prometheus all about the same, good but not great.
Alien is on another level though, the best of the series.
I believe Alien³ had more potential, but not nearly the amount Prometheus squandered.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 07, 2019, 11:08:26 PM
I think the first two films are masterpieces
I enjoy Alien3 but consider it a terribly flawed film. I think the film had potential to be something truly great. Unfortunately it's too much of a mess consider it a classic or a masterpiece. I rank Alien3, Covenant, and Prometheus all about the same, good but not great.
Alien is on another level though, the best of the series.
Agreed.
Except I'd rate Prometheus and Covenant a bit above Alien 3.
I might rank the Covenant Evanus edit above Alien 3 or a tie at least.
I've actually returned to Covenant often since its release, despite its flaws. I enjoyed it when I first watched it in theaters and probably a little more now. I love the backburster, the soundtrack in that scene is just haunting.
Prometheus though... I remember going into the theater being super excited. Even though I knew the reactions here and critically were mixed or negative. After it was over I looked over at my brother with a confused look on my face and said "Well uhh that was okay... I think", that was the best I could come up with lol. Its a beautiful film but with mountains of wasted potential. The story leaves me feeling unsatisfied.
Not a mountain of wasted potential, an entire system's worth of planets of wasted potential.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
I don't see how it's a masterpiece by any measure or with any qualifier.
The soundtrack is a masterpiece at least.
Indeed.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 07, 2019, 11:52:34 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
I don't see how it's a masterpiece by any measure or with any qualifier.
The soundtrack is a masterpiece at least.
Yeah pay that.
Quote from: SM on Feb 08, 2019, 12:06:34 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 07, 2019, 11:52:34 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
I don't see how it's a masterpiece by any measure or with any qualifier.
The soundtrack is a masterpiece at least.
Yeah pay that.
There ya go.
I dont understand the question, but no
Personally, I prefer Alien 3 to Aliens. It's a much darker, claustrophobic film. Aliens was great, but at the end of the day it's basically just another stereotypical 80's action flick. I also thought, and still think, Covenant is fantastic. Saw it in theaters twice, and bought it as soon as it came out.
Yeah, all those movies with women fighting space monsters with space soldiers got real old, real quick.
Quote from: SM on Feb 10, 2019, 10:04:56 PM
Yeah, all those movies with women fighting space monsters with space soldiers got real old, real quick.
It's pity to hear. I disagree with that. I read a lot of those coments like " Aliens is just 80's popcorn flick" and they're influenced my opinion about the movie to some degree. But recently i've rewatched it and instantly remembered that i LOVE Aliens. Yeah it's action movie, really well made action movie by the way, but i'm confident that it's more than just action for the sake of action.
I was being sarcastic. ;)
There's the odd aspect of Aliens that's stereotypical (some characters, the evil suits), but beyond that, dismissing it as "basically just another stereotypical 80's action flick" is extremely reductive.
Its barely even an action film by todays standards.
Isnt the first actual alien shown almost an hour into the film? Then it builds incredible tension until it crescendos with the queen .
I always felt it was a perfect formula of tension, terror, and action.
Agreed, SM.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 10, 2019, 10:49:27 PM
Its barely even an action film by todays standards.
Isnt the first actual alien shown almost an hour into the film? Then it builds incredible tension until it crescendos with the queen .
I always felt it was a perfect formula of tension, terror, and action.
It about an hour, but we've been ratcheting up the tension for the preceding 25 minutes with acid holes and facehuggers. And considering from the hugger attack in medical up to the Queen fight, it's almost a non-stop 40 minute action sequence, I think it easily stands with modern action films - just on a different scale.
It just seems different I guess.
I feel like a lot of todays action films seem to start out with action set pcs and pepper them through out.
Quote from: SM on Feb 10, 2019, 10:47:28 PM
I was being sarcastic. ;)
Oh, i'm glad to hear it! :D You know, i cannot unterstand when people are sarcastic unless they use smileys.
Yeah, I sometimes forget some people don't have English as a first language. ;)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 10, 2019, 11:11:07 PM
It just seems different I guess.
I feel like a lot of todays action films seem to start out with action set pcs and pepper them through out.
It's definitely different. It's not Thor appearing in the middle of a gigantic battle and using lightning to kill monsters or cars jumping between buildings, but I think it still easily compares favourably to any modern action film in terms of entertainment value.
Quote from: SM on Feb 10, 2019, 11:21:00 PM
Yeah, I sometimes forget some people don't have English as a first language. ;)
I don't actually feel like Alien: Covenant is hated as much as it seems like Alien 3 was back in the day. Sure, it has reasonably divisive aspects to it but from what I remember of the polls it actually sat far more in the positive side of things. The dislike is always going to sound louder but that's often just an illusion.
Personally, I like Alien 3 more but I think Covenant is the better made film.
I think X about Y, and it cannot be disputed because of Z.
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 11, 2019, 01:57:04 PM
I think X about Y, and it cannot be disputed because of Z.
Sorry, but could you explain what you want to say?
Covenant feels far less "hated" than Alien 3 was. With Covenant, I feel most thought "meh". Alien 3 was hated the minute Newt, Hicks and Bishop died. That's in the first five minutes!
Quote from: Jarac on Feb 12, 2019, 02:28:01 AM
Covenant feels far less "hated" than Alien 3 was. With Covenant, I feel most thought "meh". Alien 3 was hated the minute Newt, Hicks and Bishop died. That's in the first five minutes!
Well, i was not born yet in 1992 so i can't realy tell much about people reaction to third movie when it came out. But i know that it was hated and that Covenant makes (at least) some viewers very outraged
It's a different experience watching a film (or a play, or reading a book, or any kind of story really), after the first time.
You're watching it for different reasons - you don't need to concentrate on plot because you already know it. Generating tension in the audience is an exercise in mood and atmosphere, not suspense and surprise. Needless to say, jump scares are ineffectual. Characterisations are viewed differently, because you can take into consideration things people do that are yet to occur. Even judging things like pacing is difficult, because your audience is already anticipating what's about to happen, and when.
I remember reading some commentary about the so-called director's cut of Blade Runner (the one sans Deckard's voiceover). It was pointed out that everyone that viewed it did so while recollecting the voice-over that they could remember was originally there. So to say that the director's cut was the better version is a very simplistic interpretation of the experience. A similar thing could also be said of the various Alien3 versions.
TC
Quote from: TC on Feb 12, 2019, 11:50:45 AM
I remember reading some commentary about the so-called director's cut of Blade Runner (the one sans Deckard's voiceover). It was pointed out that everyone that viewed it did so while recollecting the voice-over that they could remember was originally there. So to say that the director's cut was the better version is a very simplistic interpretation of the experience. A similar thing could also be said of the various Alien3 versions.
TC
The Director's cut didn't only omit the voice-over, but changed a lot of other things too, like the ending. I think it's safe to say the Director's Cut is the better version here. At least until 2007 when we got the real Director's (Final) Cut.
The Final Cut is the only Cut that matters, but R.S didn't George Lucas you, the other Cuts;
US Theatrical (Voiceover & "Happy" Ending), International Theatrical,
The Director's Cut and the Workprint version are all available on Blu-Ray.
However, only the Final Cut is available on 4K. It's pretty much the consensus, including the Director that this is the best version in terms of content. But it is also objectively the best version available in terms of sound and picture quality.