Ripley Brought The Beast

[Biomechanoid]

In aliens the colonists removed the facehugger from a host before it could implant the embryo but the host died due to it

Now you're onto something. But we don't know how long it was attached to the colonist, a few hours, or just a few minutes. However, even if it was just a few minutes, that supports it's not instantaneous...at least in this colonist's case.

[Kurai]

In aliens the colonists removed the facehugger from a host before it could implant the embryo but the host died due to it

Now you're onto something. But we don't know how long it was attached to the colonist, a few hours, or just a few minutes. However, even if it was just a few minutes, that supports it's not instantaneous...at least in this colonist's case.

Not really, as all it implies is that the Colonist died after removal. We don't know which aspect of removal caused the death. Acid? Facehugger chemical withdrawal failsafe? Physical shock (in Alien it is mentioned that taking it off could rip the skin IIRC)?

Even then, we don't know if an embryo gestated inside the corpse or if the rapid onset of cell death in the host prevented a young embryo from gestating in the first place. It's fun for theories, but there are too many unknowns in that example.

Also, in Alien, we can't tell how long the actual embryo implantation took as Ash was doing his utmost to prevent the crew from knowing implantation even took place. So again, any "evidence" of a prolonged implantation period is merely supposition.

[Biomechanoid]

Even then, we don't know if an embryo gestated inside the corpse or if the rapid onset of cell death in the host prevented a young embryo from gestating in the first place. It's fun for theories, but there are too many unknowns in that example.

I disagree. I believe Judge Death is basing his point on actual dialogue, the scene where Bishop is reading the recorded file......

BISHOP (reading): "Surgically removed before embryo implantation. Subject: Marachuk, John J. Died during the procedure. They killed him taking it off."

This confirms the colonists knew about 1) the existence of an embryo, and 2) there was an unknown amount of time between the facehugger attaching to his face and making a deposit. Even if it was just a few minutes, the fact remains the facehugger had not deposited an embryo yet, supporting the belief that embryo deposit is not instantaneous....at least in this victim's case.

[judge death]

Doesnt matter how long it was attached to the host when the theory this thread is made about is that it takes 10 seconds to 1 minute to put a embryo into the host, in aliens defiance case only a few seconds was enough. But here we have evidence it takes longer time, enough time to surgically remove it.

[OpenMaw]

Understood and I have the open mind to recognize it's another possibility. Please note I said it wouldn't be far fetched to speculate the Facehugger makes a deposit instantly. I did not say it was utter bullshit the facehugger's delivery process is not instantaneous. That would be *ahem* all you who declared the close minded view that the other possibility is utter bullshit.

It's not close-minded. It's what has been believed and implied across three major films in the series. Even Alien Resurrection tried to keep the life cycle somewhat coherent, and Whedon still wrote in dialogue talking about "accelerated life cycle" into his original script.

It wasn't until AVP and AVP:R that we got lightning fast incubation turn around, and even then it was only the Pred-Alien that seemed to drop in-insta facehugger embryos.

Secondly, you still haven't answered my question, how do you know Kane was not impregnated the moment the creature plunged through his helmet. Insect theories are fun, but nothing on screen confirms instantaneous deposit is utter bullshit. Now of course, I don't expect you to answer because I've learned from a previous thread you ignore questions you don't want to answer. So I'll just let the question lie there.

It's the implication of the creatures behavior. It's never outright stated, and why would it be? There's no indication on the monitors that there's anything already in Kane's chest until Ripley comes by to check on things later.

Cameron obviously thought along the same lines with ALIENS, given the information presented in the surgical notes.

The face-hugger stays attached until it decides, for whatever reason, to detach. What happens? It drops dead. This implies that it's business is now done. The life cycle proceeds to the next stage. I don't buy into the idea that it stayed attached to "protect the embyro" because that doesn't really jive with the overall picture painted by the film of the creature.

In ALIEN, The dialogue leading up to attempted removal is talking about life support. The face hugger seems to prep Kane, putting him out, feeding him oxygen, and then pumping in the genetic material for incubation. Later, we see on the monitor the dark "patch" that Ripley calls back to in Alien 3.

Point is, nothing in the Alien biology is that fast. Oh it's insanely quick by terrestrial standards, but it was never depicted as being borderline instantaneous at any stage. It makes much more sense for it to be an anomaly of David's breed than it does to think this is how it always was in the Alien series.

Point me to any question I did not answer previously.

[Biomechanoid]

You're too late, Judge Death beat you to it.

[OpenMaw]

You're too late, Judge Death beat you to it.

I was neither aware the discussion had become a race, nor that Judge Death was speaker for all! 

You asked me about Kane specifically, I have now given you my reasons as to why I think it doesn't make sense conceptually or for what was put to film for insta-impregnation to be anything more than anomaly of Covenant.


Now, you mentioned that there was something I did not respond to. Do you want to point me to that instance so that I may respond to it?

[Biomechanoid]

I was neither aware the discussion had become a race, nor that Judge Death was speaker for all! 

Yea, I guess I did kinda make it sound like a race, didn't I. 

You asked me about Kane specifically, I have now given you my reasons as to why

And I give you props for a well detailed presentation.

Now, you mentioned that there was something I did not respond to. Do you want to point me to that instance so that I may respond to it?

Nahh, forget about it, we would just be waking up an old thread that has been buried. No biggie. All's cool.

[SpreadEagleBeagle]

Off-Topic reply here, but it would be kind of interesting having the hybrid Ripley/Alien "offspring" of Ripley 8 being the source of Xenomorphs in an A:R sequel, looking like a freaky looking like a semi-matured miniature Ripley when born then molting into something akin to SIL in Species, but with a tail and dorsal spines/tubes, humping people that give birth to regular A:R Alien chestbursters. In the end she would develop into something more similar to a Queen, laying eggs and all.

With Wynona Ryder getting back in the game thanks to Stranger Things she could easily reprise her role as Call whereas Sigorney Weaver would play Ripley 8 before she gives birth to the next hybrid, whom she would play as well (with lots of prosthetics!).

...or maybe not.

[bb-15]

It makes much more sense for it to be an anomaly of David's breed than it does to think this is how it always was in the Alien series.

I partly go along with this.
Still while David's facehuggers/chestbursters were quick, imo what David did was possible within what was set up by the previous Alien franchise.

Even Alien Resurrection tried to keep the life cycle somewhat coherent, and Whedon still wrote in dialogue talking about "accelerated life cycle" into his original script.

Different film theories can be brought up about this.
- Since this thread blends canon with other sources I'll do the same.

** Purvis in "Resurrection";
- Movie time is not = to time of events in our world but I'm comparing the movie time between film occurrences of facehugger attack and resulting chestburster / xenomorph. 
- General Perez talks about needing the "cargo" which are human hosts for facehuggers.
- The Betty arrives with the "cargo".
- 20 minutes into the movie; facehuggers attach themselves to the "cargo"/humans.
- 5 minutes later; After the chestbursters came out of the "cargo"/humans, they are now full grown Xenomorphs which are to begin training.
- But Purvis, who was one of the kidnapped "cargo"/humans still has a chestburster inside of him.

Purvis: [shouting] What's in-f^cking-side me?
Dr. Wren: A parasite! A foreign element.
Ripley: There's a monster in your chest. These guys hijacked your ship, and they sold your cryo tube to this... human. And he put an alien inside of you. It's a really nasty one. And in a few hours it's gonna burst through your ribcage, and you're gonna die.

- At 1 hour & 27 minutes in the film (1 hour & 22 minutes after all the other chestbursters had become grown Xenomorphs); the chestburster emerges from Purvis. 
- In the "Alien Resurrection" novel it is noted that the chestburster was not progressing inside of Purvis. It's believed that Purvis had a borderline low thyroid function and this slowed down the development of his embryo. 
- Basically, the speed of embryo growth can slow down due to the health of the host.

* What does this mean imo?
- Purvis establishes that Xenomorph embryo growth speed can vary.
- The growth cycle of all Xenomorph creatures doesn't have to happen at the same speed.
- Things affecting Xenomorph growth rates would be genetic.
* And scientists in "Alien Resurrection" altered the genetics of Xenomorphs with human/xenomorph hybrids.

- In "Alien Covenant" David was doing genetic research.
* Imo David could alter the embryo speed genetics which was established in "Alien Resurrection".
- And imo facehugger implantation speed is another part of the Xenomorph species which could vary and be manipulated by genetic engineering.

There's no indication on the monitors that there's anything already in Kane's chest until Ripley comes by to check on things later.

The script by Dan O'Bannon indicates that there were things inside of Kane's chest (a stain) before the later scene with Ripley/Ash.

This stain idea is also in the "Alien" novelization and in a deleted scene (thanks SM) which happens before Ripley checks with Ash who is looking at scans in the  monitors. 

- The stain blocked the scan.
- Fluid alone would not do that. It needed to be something hard like the shell of the embryo.

The face-hugger stays attached until it decides, for whatever reason, to detach. What happens? It drops dead. This implies that it's business is now done. The life cycle proceeds to the next stage. I don't buy into the idea that it stayed attached to "protect the embyro" because that doesn't really jive with the overall picture painted by the film of the creature.

* My film theory is;
- The Xenomorph embryo is small because that would be easier to get down a human or dog throat than a foot (1/3 meter) long parasite. (I think that the small egg size embryo shown in "Covenant" would be appropriate.)
- Small size means vulnerability to extraction by surgery or the body's vomit reflex.
* In the films;
- The Xenomorph Queen is protective of her eggs.
- The Xenomorph Drones move eggs around to continue their species. 

* Imo the facehugger is also protective of the embryo in its vulnerable stages and stays on the host.
- The facehugger leaves when the embryo is big/strong enough and is solidly implanted.

I disagree. I believe Judge Death is basing his point on actual dialogue, the scene where Bishop is reading the recorded file......

BISHOP (reading): "Surgically removed before embryo implantation. Subject: Marachuk, John J. Died during the procedure. They killed him taking it off."

This confirms the colonists knew about 1) the existence of an embryo, and 2) there was an unknown amount of time between the facehugger attaching to his face and making a deposit. Even if it was just a few minutes, the fact remains the facehugger had not deposited an embryo yet, supporting the belief that embryo deposit is not instantaneous....at least in this victim's case.

* Nice summary Bio. I have no problem with it.

* However, as I discussed above with the Purvis example, embryo growth speed can vary greatly.
That establishes Xenomorph growth cycle variability in canon. (Which imo can be manipulated.)
- My view is; embryo implantation speed could also vary.

* Am I wrong? Maybe.
Just sharing.

[whiterabbit]

You know I always assumed that the facehugger and to stoke it for a while before ejaculating it's seed. I mean ffs these things aren't chickens. Are they?

Then again, the facehugger in alien and the one referenced in aliens were both from the Derelict, meaning that they were old and probably had a hard time getting it up so to speak. The hugger from Covenant is fresh as f**k. 2 seconds would be all it needed. So yea, Ripley08 is right f**ked. Pardon the pun.

[The Cruentus]

In aliens the colonists removed the facehugger from a host before it could implant the embryo but the host died due to it

Now you're onto something. But we don't know how long it was attached to the colonist, a few hours, or just a few minutes. However, even if it was just a few minutes, that supports it's not instantaneous...at least in this colonist's case.

Not really, as all it implies is that the Colonist died after removal. We don't know which aspect of removal caused the death. Acid? Facehugger chemical withdrawal failsafe? Physical shock (in Alien it is mentioned that taking it off could rip the skin IIRC)?

Even then, we don't know if an embryo gestated inside the corpse or if the rapid onset of cell death in the host prevented a young embryo from gestating in the first place. It's fun for theories, but there are too many unknowns in that example.

The cause of death for Marachuk was a heart attack brought on by traumatic shock and poisoning which was caused by a toxic dump of the chemicals used to sedate him in the first place, basically the facehugger uses a cynose-based paralytic to render its host comatose, apparently it does this just through skin contact. Point is that they will overdose their host if they are being removed. Also if the parasite succeeded in implanting the "embryo" then it would not still be alive in Aliens as they will eventually die post implantation. Bishop clearly states that it was before implantion.

If we go after alien and aliens movies and some comics and games etc the facehugger process takes several hours to implant the host with an embryo hence they attach to the face and put the host in a coma so it can finish the process. Now I cant remember the conclusion I came up with 10 years ago for how long time it took but between 8-12 hours I´m sure.

But as you say in other stories from what you mentioned and in aliens defiance comic and avpr etc it seems the facehugger is barely needed and the embryo is implanted within 1-2 seconds. In aliens defiance comic it didnt even manage to get inside her mouth....

I would write this off as plothole or depends on the writer thinks is needed for the story.
To me its bullshit, a facehugger needs several hours to implant the embryo.

Some sources such as River of pain state that the Facehugger stays attached for over 24hrs, though that may not be universal to all hosts as I personally believe host metabolism is a factor. The W-Y report says that facehuggers implant their host somewhat early in the process, maybe a few hours in give or take but they will remain attached ffrom  20 mins to up to sixteen hours.

I too think the Defiance and Covenant thing is bull, unfortunately its the route the head honchos chose and we are stuck with it.

You know I always assumed that the facehugger and to stoke it for a while before ejaculating it's seed. I mean ffs these things aren't chickens. Are they?

Then again, the facehugger in alien and the one referenced in aliens were both from the Derelict, meaning that they were old and probably had a hard time getting it up so to speak. The hugger from Covenant is fresh as f**k. 2 seconds would be all it needed. So yea, Ripley08 is right f**ked. Pardon the pun.

We don't know how "fresh" the Planet 4 versions are, they could be years old as David mentions being frustrated at being unable to continue further and has been waiting for the needed "ingredient"

[NetworkATTH]

The thing is that the ones on Planet 4 were "growth accelerated" you could say, "yeah that's a handwave from Alan Dean Foster's adaptation". And before I knew otherwise I would have agreed. But the art in David's lab refers to, not even this current generation but an unknown past version as "Fourth Generation Shortened Gestation", so Alan Dean Foster was right. The gestation is shortened. I think that's nail in the Orrim's coffin.

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