User Information

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: The Dilemma  (Read 372 times)

DerelictShip
Dec 05, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
Topic on: Dec 05, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
Q
I was thinking about how the Alien films have really stalled out for the past twenty years.
The original trilogy still stands pretty concrete among the rest of the franchise though.
This made me think about what made the first three films so good, and my biggest thing (aside from the execution) was their flow. Alien flows so perfectly into Aliens, the audience doesn't question it once, ALIENS flows nicely into Alien 3 (Still grows on me everyday but bitter about the character kill off).
After these three its pretty obvious they kind of force us into A:R, just to bring back Ripley, and I guess the writers thought all the xenomorphs were killed on LV 426, when there could have been more somewhere out in the reaches of space...
Then of course Prometheus wipes the slate clean, but instead of flowing into a Prometheus II or a non-Alien film, they force a xenomorph in at the end, which really adds some disruption to the prequel flow.

I guess my biggest thing is that if you look at the first three films, or even the Star Wars trilogies, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings etc...they are so great because it's just one continuation of a giant story that is CLEAR to the audience. The flow to me is as simple as good writing, and having clear established connections with its predecessors, something I think A:R, Prometheus, and A:C failed to really jump on.

My personal example is the Star Wars prequels, same path we seem to be heading down...
They were mediocre at best, but they still all flowed with each other and (I still get chills) we slowly see the progression of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader and it's just absolutely badass in hindsight...wish Scott had treated the Alien as such and in the conclusion of the prequels we'd finally be able to look back and say how great the build up was to the xenomorph in the final film.



And because I know someone is thinking it, I've include a picture of Flow, from Progressive, to get the point across.


SM
Dec 05, 2017, 07:31:57 PM
Reply #1 on: Dec 05, 2017, 07:31:57 PM
Q
Your post seems to ignore that the series "stalled" with Alien 3, the most recent two films have been quite successful.

The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.


Elmazalman
Dec 05, 2017, 08:02:34 PM
Reply #2 on: Dec 05, 2017, 08:02:34 PM
Q
ALIEN & ALIENS are great. 20th should have left it at that.


Killveous
Dec 05, 2017, 08:17:41 PM
Reply #3 on: Dec 05, 2017, 08:17:41 PM
Q
I think reinventing a series is a lot harder than it looks... Prometheus did very well in cash flow and scored an average or slightly above average score. Covenant faltered a lot and is why Fox may now be twiddling its thumbs over it and wanting to cut the Alien movies short and do something else with the IPs.

Star Wars is a pretty good example of what fans didn't really want with the prequels- I agree, but rather, was far more aimed at a somewhat younger audience while the original viewers of Star Wars trilogy had grown up and no longer wanted characters acting humorous or silly (Yodas first appearance vs the appearance of many goofy chars in the prequels). I enjoy the newest Star Wars a lot, and the money just flowed in easily. I adored Rouge One and reviews are extremely high for it. It was not immature and seemed to be what a lot of fans wanted.

Harry Potter seems to flow very well and ages up WITH its fans, the first films are cute and charming with overly fantastical themes (a 10 year old fighting a snake with a sword on top of a giant statue in a sewer... who is rescued by a hat wielding bird) while the later films try be more grown up and have political tie ins and include real shocking and horrendous death scenes that aren't magical at all. They are reviewed better, and still made their moneys worth easy enough. These are two very different ways of handling films.

Alien however was right away an adult film, no fans to grow up with it (just grow older) and new fans of Alien and Predator works seem to be a younger generation. I think why Alien VS Predator works well in money department is because they are films young people want to go see with their friends for a laugh and see two things punch each other. Not for some sort of serious sit down with metaphorical deepness which Alien had and which Scotts two new films seem to be going for.

Lord of the Rings is a great note as well to add in; Because the first three films were allowed to flow naturally and didn't have a bunch of people trying to mess it around like the Hobbit films which just... Got trashed to bits well before even filming began. And Scott had the same deal with Covenant I guess- Put the Alien in it- do it now- because fans want to see the Alien. Not David and his gang of human buddies. I personally liked the end of Covenant but it does feel like the first two thirds were a separate thing entirely to the end third which was more exciting and thrilling and what people did expect to see from an 'Alien' movie... The Alien running about a ship and causing a sticky mess.

The next, and likely last in the line of these films apparently will be all about David and the machines having a song and dance on what I guess is a horror ship in space filled with alien babies he is teaching how to sing and dance with him. I hope so. And I would love to see a Princess Queen growing up as well. But who knows- perhaps this last one will be by far the best since Alien and Aliens? Or it could be a dumpster fire lol.



DerelictShip
Dec 05, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
Reply #4 on: Dec 05, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
Q
The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.
I'm in complete agreeance that the stall occurred at A3. But the stall was way more severe in A:R. A3 would have been way more accepted for me if it ended the Ripley encounters with the Alien. That way it would be it's own trilogy and everyone dies just to conclude it...not saying they had to kill off everyone, but that's the route they wanted (I believe that's because they wanted to make AVP; correct me if I'm wrong).

All in all I think if they had left Alien - A3, and then made separate alien films it would have been a steadier flow. With that leading up to the prequel trilogy as well.


Local Trouble
Dec 05, 2017, 08:54:35 PM
Reply #5 on: Dec 05, 2017, 08:54:35 PM
Q
Your post seems to ignore that the series "stalled" with Alien 3, the most recent two films have been quite successful.

The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.

You neglected to mention that the Assembly Cut totally redeemed Alien 3.


OpenMaw
Dec 05, 2017, 09:21:47 PM
Reply #6 on: Dec 05, 2017, 09:21:47 PM
Q
Well, I don't know about totally. The best version of Alien 3 doesn't really exist. It's somewhere between the Theatrical and Assembly cuts, and if Fincher had been, ya know, allowed to make his movie, he probably would have found that.

I think the most problematic thing for Alien 3 is that teaser. That beautifully nightmarish recollection of the original Alien Teaser.



I mean, Goht-Dammmn. Who doesn't want to see that movie? The series was building to this for two films now. It can't get to Earth. It can't get to Earth. They get to Earth. Or damn-near close enough.

Of course none of the scripts i've ever read actually get to Earth. Renny Harlan wanted to do that movie, but they wouldn't go that route for whatever reason.


At this point i'd really like to see the series make a sharp-right turn. Away from Prometheus stuff, away from the original trilogy, and restart without a reboot. Just veer off into a different area of space, with a different time frame, sometime after Alien 3 maybe, and have a new story. You could do a lot with this franchise, and I think the saddest thing about the Prometheus stories is that, although it started out with loftier intentions, it tripped over it's shoelaces and tried to double back with Covenant.

So I say do something weird and psychological. Imagine doing something like a death cult that worships the avatar of the Alien, and there's a private investigator type who's looking into these ritualistic sacrifices, murders, maybe some kind of a mark they leave at the scene, and they're following it back to the source, and discover something along the lines of a very old lab on a nearby moon that has been abandoned, where this cult has basically taken up residence and is worshiping these representations of the Alien. Until they finally succeed in their "rituals" and an actual alien is born.



I don't know, you could do all kinds of things with the Alien franchise.


Scorpio
Dec 05, 2017, 09:40:06 PM
Reply #7 on: Dec 05, 2017, 09:40:06 PM
Q
And they did get to Earth.  It's called AVPR.  Best movie in the franchise, hands down.


OpenMaw
Dec 05, 2017, 10:20:58 PM
Reply #8 on: Dec 05, 2017, 10:20:58 PM
Q
And they did get to Earth.  It's called AVPR.  Best movie in the franchise, hands down.

So, that automatically poopoo's the idea because the two hack directors, and the hack writer couldn't make it work? We're talking about entirely different creative teams here.

That's to say nothing of the nuances and details that separate the two films from their (speculative) inception. AvP:R was obviously never going to more than a low-brow b-grade slug fest. The first image we ever got of AVPR was of the Predator holding an alien in a choke hold. 




SM
Dec 05, 2017, 10:34:39 PM
Reply #9 on: Dec 05, 2017, 10:34:39 PM
Q
Your post seems to ignore that the series "stalled" with Alien 3, the most recent two films have been quite successful.

The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.

You neglected to mention that the Assembly Cut totally redeemed Alien 3.



PierreVW
Dec 06, 2017, 01:00:02 AM
Reply #10 on: Dec 06, 2017, 01:00:02 AM
Q
Films changed. I saw ALIEN yesterday. Still is a masterpiece but we don't saw the monster(ALIEN). We only saw the monster in the last scenes of the classic. ALIEN is like another classic: JAWS(Spielberg).

That style died long time ago.


Scorpio
Dec 06, 2017, 03:28:15 AM
Reply #11 on: Dec 06, 2017, 03:28:15 AM
Q


So, that automatically poopoo's the idea because the two hack directors, and the hack writer couldn't make it work? We're talking about entirely different creative teams here.



It does, because we already know what happens with aliens on Earth.  It's not a cool idea anymore.  Back in 1991, yes, but not now.



Xenomrph
Dec 06, 2017, 03:57:51 AM
Reply #12 on: Dec 06, 2017, 03:57:51 AM
Q
Your post seems to ignore that the series "stalled" with Alien 3, the most recent two films have been quite successful.

The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.

You neglected to mention that the Assembly Cut totally redeemed Alien 3.
Wisdom.


Corporal Hicks
Dec 06, 2017, 11:01:55 AM
Reply #13 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:01:55 AM
Q
Your post seems to ignore that the series "stalled" with Alien 3, the most recent two films have been quite successful.

The flow you talk about hit an almighty brick wall five minutes into Alien 3 and never really recovered.

You neglected to mention that the Assembly Cut totally redeemed Alien 3.

Well, I don't know about totally. The best version of Alien 3 doesn't really exist. It's somewhere between the Theatrical and Assembly cuts, and if Fincher had been, ya know, allowed to make his movie, he probably would have found that.

Ignore Trouble, he's just trying to trigger SM.  :P



So, that automatically poopoo's the idea because the two hack directors, and the hack writer couldn't make it work? We're talking about entirely different creative teams here.



It does, because we already know what happens with aliens on Earth.  It's not a cool idea anymore.  Back in 1991, yes, but not now.



It's not just about getting back to Earth, though. They really couldn't do anything with that in Requiem because we know the Aliens made no impact. They couldn't have. And I don't think anyone really wanted it set on modern day Earth. It could still be interesting to see the Aliens completely decimate a massively populated area, a widespread.

I know I'd love to see that. Whether it's Earth, or like Maw suggested in some other region of space with another established colonization hub or something. That said, I do also really like the idea of something different like your detective story. I really like some of the stuff from the EU that is around Alien worship. That first level of AvP Classic still gets my imagination firing.


Crazy Shrimp
Dec 06, 2017, 05:04:06 PM
Reply #14 on: Dec 06, 2017, 05:04:06 PM
Q
So I say do something weird and psychological. Imagine doing something like a death cult that worships the avatar of the Alien, and there's a private investigator type who's looking into these ritualistic sacrifices, murders, maybe some kind of a mark they leave at the scene, and they're following it back to the source, and discover something along the lines of a very old lab on a nearby moon that has been abandoned, where this cult has basically taken up residence and is worshiping these representations of the Alien. Until they finally succeed in their "rituals" and an actual alien is born.



I don't know, you could do all kinds of things with the Alien franchise.

I remember that I used to have a similar thought while playing "AVP Classic" in the old days. There was a huge Xenomorph statue on the first level of the Alien campaign.


But beyond the boring anecdote, it is an interesting idea, and I really hope the green light for this kind of setting and theme in the future. Actually now that I think about it, it may work for a reboot :P

Besides, there are strong similarities with...


« Last Edit: Dec 06, 2017, 06:17:08 PM by Crazy Shrimp »

 

Facebook Twitter Instagram Steam RSS Feed