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Author Topic: Flop  (Read 4324 times)

Russ
Nov 14, 2017, 04:56:55 PM
Reply #15 on: Nov 14, 2017, 04:56:55 PM
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I thought they were both OK to be honest. I really liked both of them for their own reasons. But that's just my view.


Hollywood
Nov 14, 2017, 05:14:56 PM
Reply #16 on: Nov 14, 2017, 05:14:56 PM
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I think because the brand has become so diluted... most people associate Predator with Arnold.

Seems like it got diluted because the AVP films added confusion/garbage to the time line with questions on what should or shouldn't be ignored. Also because of the many years that have gone by without any sequels that have been "eventized." People associate it with Arnold because the original is by far the least divisive film featuring the Predator, but why does that mean he is the key to success? He's not, I think good execution is the key, something the sequels have lacked. If Arnold was the key to success then Terminator wouldn't be the dumpster fire it is today.

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Like a lot of people (well a lot of people outside of this forum), I was hoping Arnold would be in this one - if only as an advisor or torch hander. But, interestingly, he declined because of those reasons - he wanted to be far more involved than just a post-credits set up for a possible sequel.

True, so I'm glad they didn't give in to his request. He basically parodies himself now, better to just ax his part than put up with that.

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I wish they had consulted with Arnold (all right, he's an actor so he's always going to say "It's good, but it needs more of me in in it") and done something that acknowledged Val Verde, LA and maybe even the Game Preserve and move onto something new from there.
But I just think having Arnold's involvement legitimises it - or would have, if you see what I mean.

If Thomas Jane's interview clears up how the characters meet, who is to say they don't acknowledge something like Val Verde? Still don't think we really need Arnold to make this film feel connected. I agree with you it would have been nice but it's not going to make or break whether this film is established in the franchise. It's not like Jurassic World (as much as I disliked the film) needed to write in Sam Neil or Jeff Goldblum to convince audiences it was a true sequel to the original.


TheBATMAN
Nov 14, 2017, 05:28:55 PM
Reply #17 on: Nov 14, 2017, 05:28:55 PM
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Would any of you gents be kind enough to PM me some direction to find this script?


Russ
Nov 14, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
Reply #18 on: Nov 14, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
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Seems like it got diluted because the AVP films added confusion/garbage to the time line ....

What you say make sense, but equally, I'm not so sure Arnold has to parody himself - Have you seen "Aftermath" or "Maggie?" These are really strong performances I thought.

You're right though, of course it doesn't need Arnold to be good or even successful, but for me it would have been great to see him. Above there were comparisons to T3 and the (Cameron-endorsed lest we forget) T:G... but isn't the big USP of the new Predator movie is that Shane Black is involved?

If he'd decided to write a role for Arnold, I can't see him giving him loads of "I'll be backs" and "Get to the Choppa" lines - the whole deal is that he's an amazing writer - that's the buzz anyway. I dunno - I would have loved to have seen it as I say.

But - its not to be and if this one does well enough for a sequel, he may be too old - he's 70 now, so he'd be what - 72 / 73 by the time it came out.


BigDaddyJohn
Nov 14, 2017, 06:23:07 PM
Reply #19 on: Nov 14, 2017, 06:23:07 PM
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Unfortunately his recent roles (except in Maggie) were a lot like nods to the audience, gimmicks etc (The Last Stand, Escape Plan, Terminator Genysis, Expendables, Sabotage...).


Hollywood
Nov 14, 2017, 06:24:07 PM
Reply #20 on: Nov 14, 2017, 06:24:07 PM
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No I haven't seen Maggie or Aftermath (actually was puzzled when I saw he made those) and that's a fair point - Arnold can turn in serious performances when he wants to. When it comes to his wider audience movies I keep remembering his cheesy smile in Genesys, the Elton John sunglasses gag in T3, and his cringeworthy exchange with Bruce Willis in Expendables 2.

But whether he cheeses it up or not, I still don't think it would be the right move to feature him heavily in the movie. I guess we will never know how much more he wanted to do or whether there was potential for a reasonable compromise. With that detail lost on us, I still agree it would have been nice but also think the franchise can go on well without him.


Original Predator
Nov 14, 2017, 07:49:49 PM
Reply #21 on: Nov 14, 2017, 07:49:49 PM
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Shane Black get's way too much love on this site, for this:

2016 The Nice Guys
2015  Edge (TV Movie)
2013  Iron Man 3
2005  Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

The best arguments I've heard for Shane Black are:

"Nice guys was funny and cool!"

And....that's about it.

The whole "Arnold being in Terminator Flops" is irrelevant.  You talk out of both sides of your mouth.  You defend Shane Black's directing and writing resume....clearly give the director and/writer credit for a good movie, yet can't recognize (or won't) that the terminator bombs were due to a lack of writing/directing. 

So "nice guys" was a "good and fun" movie because Ryan Gossling only???? 

Pick your argument. 

Arnold being in an actual predator sequel doesn't guarantee anything.  Nobody is saying that.  What it does give you tho is a starting point to the story.  A good starting point to a good (sequel) story/concept.

Vs. the latter, which have proven to be not a good story/concept.

You guys are completely missing what the first predator and ultimately McTierian (not Arnold) did.  It actually created a good story, cat and mouse, there are many elements happening if you critically think about that movie. 

The biggest mistake FOX and the fans that lap this stuff up have made is they think the predator is a "creature" in their ensemble of characters.  "Throw him in a pyramid and have him kill stuff". "Put him in a small town suburb and have him hunt teenagers", "heck throw some Aliens in there too..."

This aint Jason, this aint Freddy, this aint a who's who of creature's.  Mac T, legitimized something with that movie (and I'll give pred 2 props too) and it has since turned it into a "creature feature".  So now we got Swamp Man and all of his friends teaming up with humans to fight a super Pred.  This is Black's "vision"?????

He didn't learn much from Mac T.


Hollywood
Nov 14, 2017, 08:15:31 PM
Reply #22 on: Nov 14, 2017, 08:15:31 PM
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Shane Black get's way too much love on this site, for this:

2016 The Nice Guys
2015  Edge (TV Movie)
2013  Iron Man 3
2005  Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

The best arguments I've heard for Shane Black are:

"Nice guys was funny and cool!"

And....that's about it.

In addition to simply being a great movie, it was well written and had great characters.

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The whole "Arnold being in Terminator Flops" is irrelevant.  You talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Wrong, I'm simply using Terminator as an example to show that Arnold isn't the element that makes movies credible.

 
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You defend Shane Black's directing and writing resume....clearly give the director and/writer credit for a good movie, yet can't recognize (or won't) that the terminator bombs were due to a lack of writing/directing.

Fault in the writing is partially due to the fact that writers have the daunting task of making old man Arnold make any sense whatsoever. Then we get things like "Pops" destroying the original timeline.

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So "nice guys" was a "good and fun" movie because Ryan Gossling only???? 

Pick your argument.

If that's what the voices in your head are telling you then sure, but the reality is that the characters and execution of that film made it great.

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Arnold being in an actual predator sequel doesn't guarantee anything.  Nobody is saying that.  What it does give you tho is a starting point to the story.  A good starting point to a good (sequel) story/concept.

You ARE saying without him it's impossible to have a credible film though and I disagree.

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Vs. the latter, which have proven to be not a good story/concept.

It's not as simple as you claim it is considering the variable that Arnold isn't "Arnold in his prime" anymore.

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You guys are completely missing what the first predator and ultimately McTierian (not Arnold) did.  It actually created a good story, cat and mouse, there are many elements happening if you critically think about that movie.

No one is missing that the first film is great. Are you saying you want a rehash?

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The biggest mistake FOX and the fans that lap this stuff up have made is they think the predator is a "creature" in their ensemble of characters.  "Throw him in a pyramid and have him kill stuff". "Put him in a small town suburb and have him hunt teenagers", "heck throw some Aliens in there too..."

This aint Jason, this aint Freddy, this aint a who's who of creature's.  Mac T, legitimized something with that movie (and I'll give pred 2 props too) and it has since turned it into a "creature feature".  So now we got Swamp Man and all of his friends teaming up with humans to fight a super Pred.  This is Black's "vision"?????

He didn't learn much from Mac T.

Expanding the universe beyond Dutch doesn't mean you're throwing The Predator into just any plot and hoping for gold. Don't know why that's how you see things.


Original Predator
Nov 14, 2017, 10:19:47 PM
Reply #23 on: Nov 14, 2017, 10:19:47 PM
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1.  If you believe Nice Guys is "great" your definition of a "great" movie and mine are vastly different.
 
2. I agree Arnold isn't the element that makes anything credible (pretty sure I said that a couple times).  Arnold = good movie is False, Arnold = bad movie is also false.  AKA Arnold also isn't the element that makes movies NOT credible (your premise)

3. Fault in writing is fault- in- writing plain and simple.  Your definition, again,  of "daunting" task is different than mine.  They actually did fine explaining an "old" Arnold Terminator, the rest of the writing after that was horrible.  As if that's more "daunting" than having Predators in pants working for the Gov't, teaming up with antagonists, cause that's more believable and less daunting? 

4. The "voices in my head" are telling me you can't have your cake and eat it too.  The Pro- "The Predator" folks are telling me to like this script and give only "The nice Guys" to justify the leaked script. "He's a great director" = "this is a great script" = "this will be a great movie".  Yet argue that Arnold ruined Post T2's, not the director or the writer???

5. I'm saying without Arnold.  It's hard to trust a Predator movie (AVP, AVP 2, Predators) premise (key word), because so many plot lines have been ignored. Credibility IS lost with this franchise.  Plain and simple.  Unless you think AVP, AVP 2 and Predators were credible films to this franchise???

6.  Arnold doesn't need to be in his prime to pass the torch or assist another actor in investigating/hunting/defeating a Predator.  Is there only one type of movie this can be?  You can't be that shortsighted to think there is only one-type/style of action/sci-fi movie.  Blade Runner 2049 set the bar for bringing back Ford, old age and all, and how to use him.  (In fact too bad T-Genysis writers couldn't think up something as simple as the writers for BR2049 figured in bringing back an aged replicant-Deckard, they seemed to take on that "daunting" task just fine)

7.I don't want to rehash the first film.  I'm saying after reading the leaked script and the sh-tty plans Black has for this film, is ignoring all elements that made the first film great.  Which is a major concern (legitimate I'd say), considering the last 3 bombs went down the same road Black is choosing to take.  At the end of all of this my take is "Predator" should be viewed as a standalone film and Predator 2 a worthy sequel.  After that this isn't a "franchise" or a "universe" Pred, or Pred 2 aren't connected to these other movies (don't care about the minor Keyes/gov't connection Black is using).

8.  Expanding the Universe beyond Dutch is fine.  In fact it's what I was hoping for with The Predator.  Considering the HUGE plot-holes FOX has let happen over time and with failed movies AVP, AVP2(R) and Predators, I'd say it's fairly obvious THEY/FOX actually were throwing the Predator (creature) into just any plot and hoping for gold, and so is Black for that matter.  Don't know how you don't see that?

Bottom line is the script is comic-book like at best.  It will be a good rental movie for me.  And in this day in age-internet and all, me making the decision to not like the movie (via the script) and NOT pay theatre money before it's released is perfectly reasonable (just as it is you read the script and determine the movie is good and pay theatre money to see it).  The leaked script on this site, is very clear, detailed and concise.  I have ZERO qualms saying I think it's going to be yet another failed creature movie.  Maybe 4th time's a charm for FOX, finally figuring out that Predator isn't a "creature" they can add bubble-gum too.  Maybe they call Mac T and say something like "Hey man we thought this Pred creature was like Jason and Freddy and Swamp Thing, but apparently it's different?  What are we missing???"

« Last Edit: Nov 14, 2017, 10:27:19 PM by Original Predator »

Master
Nov 15, 2017, 12:39:03 AM
Reply #24 on: Nov 15, 2017, 12:39:03 AM
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Guys, don't throw BR2049 spoilers around! Its still fairly fresh and not all of us seen it yet.


Hollywood
Nov 15, 2017, 01:18:03 AM
Reply #25 on: Nov 15, 2017, 01:18:03 AM
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1.  If you believe Nice Guys is "great" your definition of a "great" movie and mine are vastly different.

And? Yeah it was in my top 5 movies of 2016 along with Arrival, Hacksaw Ridge, Hell or High Water and Deadpool. What were your top 5?
 
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2. I agree Arnold isn't the element that makes anything credible (pretty sure I said that a couple times).  Arnold = good movie is False,

You said "Anything sans Arnold isn't a sequel at this point in the game."

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Arnold = bad movie is also false.  AKA Arnold also isn't the element that makes movies NOT credible (your premise)

Not at all what I said. My direct quotes: "Still don't think we really need Arnold to make this film feel connected. I agree with you it would have been nice but it's not going to make or break whether this film is established in the franchise"
"I know I would've liked to see him make an appearance."

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3. Fault in writing is fault- in- writing plain and simple.

I disagree, intricate details are important. The writers were set up for failure from the start in having to write the film completely around an aged Arnold. Another actor should have taken over long ago.

 
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Your definition, again,  of "daunting" task is different than mine.  They actually did fine explaining an "old" Arnold Terminator, the rest of the writing after that was horrible.  As if that's more "daunting" than having Predators in pants working for the Gov't, teaming up with antagonists, cause that's more believable and less daunting?

It made no sense because the paradoxes Pops created were impossible to ignore, they let his involvement dictate the story which led to a very very bad film. It could have been executed better, sure, but it wasn't.

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4. The "voices in my head" are telling me you can't have your cake and eat it too.  The Pro- "The Predator" folks are telling me to like this script and give only "The nice Guys" to justify the leaked script. "He's a great director" = "this is a great script" = "this will be a great movie".  Yet argue that Arnold ruined Post T2's, not the director or the writer???

Who told you to like the script?  Sure wasn't me despite you saying for me to "pick my argument." Also you gave more examples than the nice guys to justify Shane Black's talent before while also leaving out the Lethal Weapon movies, so let's not pretend one film is all we're basing his talent on. And sure, I'll go ahead and say the director ruined T3 and Genesys by allowing the films to be made around Arnold's characters.

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5. I'm saying without Arnold.  It's hard to trust a Predator movie (AVP, AVP 2, Predators) premise (key word), because so many plot lines have been ignored. Credibility IS lost with this franchise.  Plain and simple.  Unless you think AVP, AVP 2 and Predators were credible films to this franchise???

Nope, you said "Anything sans Arnold isn't a sequel at this point in the game." You include The Predator in that claim because Arnold isn't in it. And thats an opinion from someone who hasn't seen even a trailer of The Predator. If anything is not credible, it's your argument.

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6.  Arnold doesn't need to be in his prime to pass the torch or assist another actor in investigating/hunting/defeating a Predator.  Is there only one type of movie this can be?  You can't be that shortsighted to think there is only one-type/style of action/sci-fi movie.  Blade Runner 2049 set the bar for bringing back Ford, old age and all, and how to use him.  (In fact too bad T-Genysis writers couldn't think up something as simple as the writers for BR2049 figured in bringing back an aged replicant-Deckard, they seemed to take on that "daunting" task just fine)

Agreed he doesn't have to be in his prime to pass the torch, but we don't know what Arnold would want in order to be involved - and bottom line is that he isn't the writer, filmmaker, producer, or even the same action star he used to be. When has a filmmaker compromising to the demands of the studio or over-accommodation of the actors ever resulted in a movie that works?

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7.I don't want to rehash the first film.  I'm saying after reading the leaked script and the sh-tty plans Black has for this film, is ignoring all elements that made the first film great.  Which is a major concern (legitimate I'd say), considering the last 3 bombs went down the same road Black is choosing to take.  At the end of all of this my take is "Predator" should be viewed as a standalone film and Predator 2 a worthy sequel.  After that this isn't a "franchise" or a "universe" Pred, or Pred 2 aren't connected to these other movies (don't care about the minor Keyes/gov't connection Black is using).

What elements made the first film great that you're so sure this film won't have? This film has the potential to have great action, characters, kills, suspense, dialogue, and effects. Specifically, what is definitely going to be missing other than Arnold?

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8.  Expanding the Universe beyond Dutch is fine.  In fact it's what I was hoping for with The Predator.  Considering the HUGE plot-holes FOX has let happen over time and with failed movies AVP, AVP2(R) and Predators, I'd say it's fairly obvious THEY/FOX actually were throwing the Predator (creature) into just any plot and hoping for gold, and so is Black for that matter.  Don't know how you don't see that?

I don't see that because Black had this script written specifically for the Predator. They didn't write the Predator into it after already having a script.

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Bottom line is the script is comic-book like at best.  It will be a good rental movie for me.  And in this day in age-internet and all, me making the decision to not like the movie (via the script) and NOT pay theatre money before it's released is perfectly reasonable (just as it is you read the script and determine the movie is good and pay theatre money to see it).  The leaked script on this site, is very clear, detailed and concise.  I have ZERO qualms saying I think it's going to be yet another failed creature movie.  Maybe 4th time's a charm for FOX, finally figuring out that Predator isn't a "creature" they can add bubble-gum too.  Maybe they call Mac T and say something like "Hey man we thought this Pred creature was like Jason and Freddy and Swamp Thing, but apparently it's different?  What are we missing???"

True your opinion to dislike the film before it's a film, or to ignore it is totally within your right. Still disagree with the claim that "Anything sans Arnold isn't a sequel at this point in the game." This movie is going to count, and Arnold isnt the definitive factor on that.




Space_Dementia
Nov 15, 2017, 08:47:09 PM
Reply #28 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:47:09 PM
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One of the only things I really don't want when it comes to a new Predator movie is, a carbon copy of the original... I want something new and different (expands the Predator mythology), which is also entertaining and fresh. But I do also want it to retain the suspence and horror that the first movie had, the terror of facing up against something thats not from this world.

Truth is no one knows how well this movie is going to be recieved yet, financially and critically... I got faith Shane Black will deliver a well crafted movie, but will it please everyone? I doubt it.

I for one, really looking forward to The Predator! Massive fan of the original and its underrated sequels.



 

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