How did David know?

[Paranoid Android]

lol this thread.



How the hell did nobody find the Derelict in Aliens in between the creation of the colony and Ripley waking up?
There are these things called Satellites.. Are you telling me the colonists didnt have access to them while deciding to make a colony on a tiny planet?
What happened to the Derelict's signal inbetween the films? 


When did plot holes or unadressed story elements became the
"MOST DAMAGING" criticism that someone could think up of a film?

Plot holes dont automatically make a film BAD by any means. 

Did you just point out a plot hole to justify other plot holes?

No, this plot hole is not the "MOST DAMAGING" criticism that someone can think up of a film, or specifically, this film. I don't think anyone ever accused this plot hole at that. The most damaging criticism people throw at the film includes terrible writing, cardboard characters, bad use of monsters (both in terms of CGI and within the story itself), horrible lore, dysfunctional third act. I suppose most of those things fall under the category of "terrible writing" though, to be fair. Only difference is that those criticisms have already been brought up; This one was not, so now this one is discussed.

It's also a plot hole that is a symptom of the bad writing that people keep throwing at this film, and in order to make my point, I'll break down the entire scene to point out how awfully written it is, starting with the embryos, but skipping the obvious "David has no idea and no means of making perfect embryos":

1. David has no reason to make them to begin with: Even assuming that you have the knowledge and the means to make them, those embryos require a freezer, which means you also need to build a freezer to keep them cooled down. This also means that they'll only be useful if the ship you lure has its own freezer to later store those embryos in. This is a highly improbable scenario, therefore there's no logical reason for David to invest time and resources into it. David also had no reason to lure humans to the planet. He had a hanger full of Engineer ships that he knew how to pilot. If he needed humans, he could've left the planet and found humans a long time ago.
2. David swallowing the embryos in order to transport them on board makes no sense: David's time lag between his fight with Walter and him joining the crew in order to leave the planet already makes no sense with just him needing to cut off his arm and generally making himself look like Walter. Now you're adding finding embryos and swallowing them into the mix. And no, he couldn't have kept them swallowed from the start of the film because that would've resulted in the embryos being damaged in the fight, and/or damaged from not being stored in a freezer. On top of that, there's no logical reason for an android to be programmed with drug smuggling techniques, unless Weyland had some really weird hobbies.
3. David having an access code to the ship makes no sense: Even assuming that he was given some type of access code in order to take control of Weyland ships, his 12 year old codes would be out of date by the events of Covenant. Even more damning is the fact that the film establishes earlier that David's entire line of androids was discontinued because they disturbed people. So the company made an effort in shutting them all down and discontinuing their production, but nobody addressed their ability to ship-hack with Weyland-specific codes?!?
4. David locking Daniels in her cryopod makes no sense because the cryopod tech makes no sense: Are you telling me that nobody designed a way to get out of those pods from inside if you end up closing one by accident?!? Ridley Scott treats those pods like they're death traps, not devices that are designed to make things easier, which are usually also designed to be fool-proof. The film has two instances where cryopods are given focus: In the first you get James Franco being incinerated in a way that makes sleeping in an actual oven safer, and in the second Daniels basically has nothing to do once the pod closes. Those things are hazards...why would anyone in the entire galaxy risk using them? You had to have been literally scoped out and tested to be the dumbest per- You know what? I take it back. The Covenant crew using these death trap pods actually makes total sense within the context of the entire film.

Edit: Entirely slipped my mind:
5. "Don't let the bedbugs bite; I'll tuck in the children": Hey David, Freddy Krueger just called. He wants his quips back!

[Hard-R]

@ Paranoid Android

Spot on and very well put!

[Rudiger]

@ Paranoid Android

Well put. It's the really poor writing that make the plot holes and logic gaps so noticeable.

[Predaker]

They're not human embryos...

[Highland]

Theres one more possibility. He made them on the Covenant not Paradise, although the movie never points to an answer.

[Baron Von Marlon]

but skipping the obvious "David has no idea and no means of making perfect embryos":

1. David has no reason to make them to begin with: Even assuming that you have the knowledge and the means to make them, those embryos require a freezer, which means you also need to build a freezer to keep them cooled down. This also means that they'll only be useful if the ship you lure has its own freezer to later store those embryos in. This is a highly improbable scenario, therefore there's no logical reason for David to invest time and resources into it. David also had no reason to lure humans to the planet. He had a hanger full of Engineer ships that he knew how to pilot. If he needed humans, he could've left the planet and found humans a long time ago.
2. David swallowing the embryos in order to transport them on board makes no sense: David's time lag between his fight with Walter and him joining the crew in order to leave the planet already makes no sense with just him needing to cut off his arm and generally making himself look like Walter. Now you're adding finding embryos and swallowing them into the mix. And no, he couldn't have kept them swallowed from the start of the film because that would've resulted in the embryos being damaged in the fight, and/or damaged from not being stored in a freezer. On top of that, there's no logical reason for an android to be programmed with drug smuggling techniques, unless Weyland had some really weird hobbies.
3. David having an access code to the ship makes no sense: Even assuming that he was given some type of access code in order to take control of Weyland ships, his 12 year old codes would be out of date by the events of Covenant. Even more damning is the fact that the film establishes earlier that David's entire line of androids was discontinued because they disturbed people. So the company made an effort in shutting them all down and discontinuing their production, but nobody addressed their ability to ship-hack with Weyland-specific codes?!?
4. David locking Daniels in her cryopod makes no sense because the cryopod tech makes no sense: Are you telling me that nobody designed a way to get out of those pods from inside if you end up closing one by accident?!? Ridley Scott treats those pods like they're death traps, not devices that are designed to make things easier, which are usually also designed to be fool-proof. The film has two instances where cryopods are given focus: In the first you get James Franco being incinerated in a way that makes sleeping in an actual oven safer, and in the second Daniels basically has nothing to do once the pod closes. Those things are hazards...why would anyone in the entire galaxy risk using them? You had to have been literally scoped out and tested to be the dumbest per- You know what? I take it back. The Covenant crew using these death trap pods actually makes total sense within the context of the entire film.

Edit: Entirely slipped my mind:
5. "Don't let the bedbugs bite; I'll tuck in the children": Hey David, Freddy Krueger just called. He wants his quips back!

1. Could you enlighten us on all the technology and tools that are and aren't available on the planet? Since you seem to know the inventory of the entire planet.
Improbable that another spaceship would have freezer on their ship? Perhaps the humans travelling on those ships have a fridge/freezer for food, medicine, samples,...
The other ships weren't operable or stuck below ground level, probably because the accompaning Scorpion ship got destroyed.
Making David stuck on the planet. Or "marooned" as he clearly said.

2. The time gap, I agree.
The drug smuggling... You're already thinking about it as part of his programming. He's an AI, makes more sense he saw it somewhere, remembered it and applied it to the situation.

3. The codes... David was Weyland's son, personal assistent, number 2,... Not strange he'd be in possession of high level codes or some kind of override.
Why they're not deactivated? Nobody knew what happened to the Prometheus expedition, so why cancel all their codes?

4. Cryo-pods come with an android to take care of them. Consider him an anesthesist. So no need for a cancel button.

5. Big whoop.

6. Please tell me again why you're spending time posting in the section of a movie that you (I believe your words were) hate with a passion.
You don't like anything, are always complaining and if someone comes up with an explanation for something you don't like, it just couldn't be true.
So what's the point in visiting here?

[bb-15]

Plot holes dont automatically make a film BAD by any means. 

The fact that you notice them is usually a sign that you're watching a stinker.

First, your personal taste about "Covenant" or any film is not infallible.
Others may have a different personal taste than you.
For instance on IMDb, here are the number of people who gave "Covenant" clearly positive ratings (not a "stinker").
8537       10/10
8403       9/10
26364       8/10
46955       7/10

Second; You are blending together two different topics.
1. Whether you or others liked or disliked a film.
2. Whether a science fiction movie has plot logic problems.

* Lots of people do this (and of course they have every right to have this way of evaluating movies).
Many people think that if they have an emotional gut reaction about a film, then those gut feelings alone = knowledge about specific facts and logic in the movie.
It doesn't.
- Gut emotion alone does not give detailed understanding of the facts / logic in a film.
- Liking or disliking a movie on a gut level is separate from understanding the facts/logic of a science fiction film (in terms of the rules of the movie/franchise as well as relevant facts in our world). 

* What are the core facts in this discussion imo?
- David is an extremely intelligent android as shown the Alien prequels.
He can run a ship while the crew are in stasis, he has excellent knowledge of ancient human and alien languages. He has excellent knowledge of advanced alien technology. On Paradise he genetically engineered the xenomorphs from the work done by the Engineers (showing not only skill but the ability to use the many kinds of technology to do such sophisticated genetic engineering).

- Considering all that skill and knowledge which David had;
Is it possible that David knew the standard size of embryos in human crewed ship storage;
(From his data base or his investigations of transmissions while on Paradise)?
* My answer; of course it is possible.   

* For contrast, a highly rated science fiction film like "Interstellar" is loaded with plot logic issues.
Liking that movie does not mean that those many plot logic issues do not exist.

[Rudiger]

Plot holes dont automatically make a film BAD by any means. 

The fact that you notice them is usually a sign that you're watching a stinker.

First, your personal taste about "Covenant" or any film is not infallible.
Others may have a different personal taste than you.
For instance on IMDb, here are the number of people who gave "Covenant" clearly positive ratings (not a "stinker").
8537       10/10
8403       9/10
26364       8/10
46955       7/10

Second; You are blending together two different topics.
1. Whether you or others liked or disliked a film.
2. Whether a science fiction movie has plot logic problems.

* Lots of people do this (and of course they have every right to have this way of evaluating movies).
Many people think that if they have an emotional gut reaction about a film, then those gut feelings alone = knowledge about specific facts and logic in the movie.
It doesn't.
- Gut emotion alone does not give detailed understanding of the facts / logic in a film.
- Liking or disliking a movie on a gut level is separate from understanding the facts/logic of a science fiction film (in terms of the rules of the movie/franchise as well as relevant facts in our world). 

* What are the core facts in this discussion imo?
- David is an extremely intelligent android as shown the Alien prequels.
He can run a ship while the crew are in stasis, he has excellent knowledge of ancient human and alien languages. He has excellent knowledge of advanced alien technology. He genetically engineered the xenomorphs from the work done by the Engineers.

- Considering all that skill and knowledge which David had;
Is it possible that David knew the standard size of embryos in human crewed ship storage;
(From his data base or his investigations of transmissions while on Paradise)?
* My answer; of course it is possible.   

* For contrast, a highly rated science fiction film like "Interstellar" is loaded with plot logic issues.
Liking that movie does not mean that those many plot logic issues do not exist.

Couldn't you have just said "I disagree"? Brevity, dear boy. It's all the rage don't you know.

[Paranoid Android]

1. Could you enlighten us on all the technology and tools that are and aren't available on the planet? Since you seem to know the inventory of the entire planet.
Improbable that another spaceship would have freezer on their ship? Perhaps the humans travelling on those ships have a fridge/freezer for food, medicine, samples,...
The other ships weren't operable or stuck below ground level, probably because the accompaning Scorpion ship got destroyed.
Making David stuck on the planet. Or "marooned" as he clearly said.

I don't need to know about any of the tech and tools available on the planet, and neither does anyone else who watches the film. David's making the embryos needed to be set up in some way in order to make sense. Him making embryos out of thin air makes about as much sense as him making a Megazord, and you can defend the Megazord argument the with the same makebelieve fan theory logic you're using. "Oh, but you don't know what kind of tech he had access to, maybe he had the tech to build a Megazord! You don't know! He probably can imagine what a Megazord looks like, so since he's an android, he surely can make one based on that!"

It is indeed improbable that another spaceship would have a specific freezer designed for embryos. They don't just keep them in a food fridge, you know...

Prometheus has already established that you don't need no silly scorpion to take off in one of the Engineers' ships, and unlike the ones found on their home planet, the ships on LV-223 had 2000 years of zero maintenance. So no, David had no problem with the ships and it's a lot more likely that he could take off in just about any ship he could find on their home planet than on one of the ships found on LV-223.

The drug smuggling... You're already thinking about it as part of his programming. He's an AI, makes more sense he saw it somewhere, remembered it and applied it to the situation.

Putting aside the super skills you're assigning David of just being able to mimic everything he ever sees, where would a servant android of (probably) the richest man alive would see how drug smuggling is performed, and why would he train himself at it? "Oh, this drug smuggling thing looks pretty cool! I better keep that in mind in case I find myself all alone on an alien planet and might need to smuggle stuff I made to someone else's ship!"

3. The codes... David was Weyland's son, personal assistent, number 2,... Not strange he'd be in possession of high level codes or some kind of override.
Why they're not deactivated? Nobody knew what happened to the Prometheus expedition, so why cancel all their codes?

I don't care if David was Weyland himself; any code he might've had would've been outdated after 12 years. Nobody needed to know what happened to the Prometheus expidition. David's whole line of androids was a mess. Did you even read what I wrote?

4. Cryo-pods come with an android to take care of them. Consider him an anesthesist. So no need for a cancel button.

No, they don't. Every single cryopod in the original Alien franchise worked just fine, and they all did so without any androids taking care of them. Only in Covenant the damn things are death traps - with or without android support. What's even worse is that your argument actually adds fuel to my fire: You're basically saying that if an android gets damaged for whatever reason during a ship's expedition, the entire crew no longer can use cryopods. I ask again: who in his right mind would get into one of those things knowing all of that?

6. Please tell me again why you're spending time posting in the section of a movie that you (I believe your words were) hate with a passion.
You don't like anything, are always complaining and if someone comes up with an explanation for something you don't like, it just couldn't be true.
So what's the point in visiting here?

I already did. Feel free to return to the last post where you asked me that and save my response on a Word document, so that whenever you feel like questioning my presence in this forum again, you can revisit it for reference. If me criticizing your precious film personally upsets you, either grow up or open a support group. Just stop wasting my time with this petty passive-aggressive stuff. My presence here is just as legitimate as yours.

[bb-15]

Plot holes dont automatically make a film BAD by any means. 

The fact that you notice them is usually a sign that you're watching a stinker.

First, your personal taste about "Covenant" or any film is not infallible.
Others may have a different personal taste than you.
For instance on IMDb, here are the number of people who gave "Covenant" clearly positive ratings (not a "stinker").
8537       10/10
8403       9/10
26364       8/10
46955       7/10

Second; You are blending together two different topics.
1. Whether you or others liked or disliked a film.
2. Whether a science fiction movie has plot logic problems.

* Lots of people do this (and of course they have every right to have this way of evaluating movies).
Many people think that if they have an emotional gut reaction about a film, then those gut feelings alone = knowledge about specific facts and logic in the movie.
It doesn't.
- Gut emotion alone does not give detailed understanding of the facts / logic in a film.
- Liking or disliking a movie on a gut level is separate from understanding the facts/logic of a science fiction film (in terms of the rules of the movie/franchise as well as relevant facts in our world). 

* What are the core facts in this discussion imo?
- David is an extremely intelligent android as shown the Alien prequels.
He can run a ship while the crew are in stasis, he has excellent knowledge of ancient human and alien languages. He has excellent knowledge of advanced alien technology. He genetically engineered the xenomorphs from the work done by the Engineers.

- Considering all that skill and knowledge which David had;
Is it possible that David knew the standard size of embryos in human crewed ship storage;
(From his data base or his investigations of transmissions while on Paradise)?
* My answer; of course it is possible.   

* For contrast, a highly rated science fiction film like "Interstellar" is loaded with plot logic issues.
Liking that movie does not mean that those many plot logic issues do not exist.

Couldn't you have just said "I disagree"?

LOL! (I realize you are joking but also there's more to it than that.)
To answer your question; no. Saying just 'I disagree' would not work for me because there are bigger issues in these kinds of debates which to me take some explanation.

Brevity, dear boy. It's all the rage don't you know.

I agree that "brevity... it's all the rage".
But what does a brief trashing of a film tell us about that movie?

And I don't mean just about "Covenant" but also the multiple comments I've seen on IMDb about "2001" and "Blade Runner" which said that those movies were junk.
- Should I have just replied; 'I disagree'.
I don't think so.

* Anyway back to the main topic, imo it is logical that David had the smarts, knowledge, planning ability and technology to have produced embryos at the correct size. 
(Hopefully that's brief enough for you.)

[Rudiger]

* Anyway back to the main topic, imo it is logical that David had the smarts, knowledge, planning ability and technology to have produced embryos at the correct size. 
(Hopefully that's brief enough for you.)

Perfect! This forum needs a "thumbs up" emoji.

[Alionic]

Just stop wasting my time with this petty passive-aggressive stuff. My presence here is just as legitimate as yours.

This is hilarious coming from a guy who once argued that Newt was an Alien for a few pages.

[Rudiger]

Just stop wasting my time with this petty passive-aggressive stuff. My presence here is just as legitimate as yours.

This is hilarious coming from a guy who once argued that Newt was an Alien for a few pages.

Come on dude, play the ball not the man.

[skhellter]

Just stop wasting my time with this petty passive-aggressive stuff. My presence here is just as legitimate as yours.

This is hilarious coming from a guy who once argued that Newt was an Alien for a few pages.

[Paranoid Android]

Just stop wasting my time with this petty passive-aggressive stuff. My presence here is just as legitimate as yours.

This is hilarious coming from a guy who once argued that Newt was an Alien for a few pages.

You mean this?

An alien species cannot be defined by simply being unfamiliar and strange. We still find new species on Earth even today, but we don't really refer to them as alien species. If tomorrow we will discover a new type of jellyfish at the bottom of the ocean, we will consider it a new species, but we won't consider it alien. On the other hand, if we use examples from science fiction, the Vulcans in Star Trek are an alien species, although they have a long relationship with humanity and are quite familiar.

Ultimately, here's the difference between the two, and why Vulcans are aliens, but new types of jellyfish are not: Vulcans have no genetic and evolutionary ties to humanity. They have evolved completely separate from us on their own planet. No amount of research and familiarity will change that. Jellyfish and any other Earth-based lifeforms, on the other hand, share evolutionary ties with one another. They are related to us even if we don't know a thing about them. This is why, for example, Newt is clearly not an alien no matter where she was born; She has genetic and evolutionary ties to humanity, even if she wasn't born on Earth.

Now if you bring this back to the alien discussion, you're looking at a creature that shares our DNA and that's man-made. It has no independent evolutionary ladder. It is the way it is because David designed it to be that way, making it forever related to humanity. That's why it's not an alien.

I don't know which part is sadder: you criminally misrepresenting what I wrote back then, the fact that your current post and the quoted part of my reply to Baron have absolutely no connection to each other, or the fact that every reply you make to a post of mine seems to have absolutely no other purpose other than to personally attack me.