Mountains of Madness, parallels

Started by NickisSmart, Feb 17, 2017, 03:18:54 PM

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Mountains of Madness, parallels (Read 10,216 times)

CainsSon

CainsSon

#15
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 19, 2017, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 19, 2017, 02:47:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFicodglXyQ

It's been pointed out before (i.e. that PROM is many ways a rehash of AVP), but it is fun to actually see the resemblances panned  side by side like that.

Some of the narrative similarities are annoying but most of the larger issues, are really due to AVP deliberately using the UNUSED material from the original Alien script.
Still this is eye opening - If not just because it illustrates how much of a difference a good director and creative team makes for a pretty terrible script.

cliffhanger

cliffhanger

#16
yeah, i noticed quite a good bunch of the similarities but that there were so many is even more annoying. wow.

by the sound of it, the supposed leaked 'the predator' script looks like a re-make of AVP:R..........




BTW, as for the Lovecraft story of the Mountains of Madness,

i assume you guys have not ignored that the movie "ARRIVAL" by Dennis Villeneuve is a 100% clear copy/connection to the 'Elder Things'?

i mean just look at the resemblance:





and then there's the 'language' of the heptapods from Arrival that look EXACTLY like the shape of the 'derelict' and 'juggernaut' from alien and prometheus



and not the least, that the heptapod UFO looks exactly like the ENGINEER UFO






coincidence? don't think so.......


bobby brown

Then Prometheus should feel lucky at least having inspired a much better film

But the language letter supposedly resembling the derelict craft is a bit of a stretch.

Enoch

Enoch

#18
I can not agree with everything you said.

Shape of juggernaut is indeed inspired by Ouroboros, an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. It often taken to symbolize introspection, the eternal return or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself. It also represents the infinite cycle of nature's endless creation and destruction, life and death and despair.

You can see that same motif with the Xenomoprh... its quite deliberate as you can very well notice.



Ouroboros

Regarding the shape of the cylindrical ship, that one is not entirely same with the ship from Arrival.
That from the Arrival actually has the shape of an eye...(cornea etc.)



That too was deliberate but I wont go into analysis of hidden meanings behind Arrival.

Elder ship from the beginning of Prometheus has the shape of the seed. I wrote about that
here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=55642.msg2152416#msg2152416

The designer of cylindrical ship, Steve Messing refereed to it as Noobernaut-Pebble ship.

At the end... our eyes have the similar shape of the seed. Its been said that our eyes seeded
the world we perceive.

CainsSon

CainsSon

#19
Quote from: Enoch on Feb 19, 2017, 04:23:50 PM
I can not agree with everything you said.

Shape of juggernaut is indeed inspired by Ouroboros, an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. It often taken to symbolize introspection, the eternal return or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself. It also represents the infinite cycle of nature's endless creation and destruction, life and death and despair.

You can see that same motif with the Xenomoprh... its quite deliberate as you can very well notice.



Ouroboros

Regarding the shape of the cylindrical ship, that one is not entirely same with the ship from Arrival.
That from the Arrival actually has the shape of an eye...(cornea etc.)

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/larger-thumbnails/1205318-eye-ball-cross-section.jpeg

That too was deliberate but I wont go into analysis of hidden meanings behind Arrival.

Elder ship from the beginning of Prometheus has the shape of the seed. I wrote about that
here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=55642.msg2152416#msg2152416

The designer of cylindrical ship, Steve Messing refereed to it as Noobernaut-Pebble ship.

At the end... our eyes have the similar shape of the seed. Its been said that our eyes seeded
the world we perceive.

The shape or the Derelict is also two legs/bones and a groin area, with the knee joints in the air. It's very deliberate that they enter between the legs into Vaginal openings, and become inseminated. It's a reversal of the human reproductive cycle.

Enoch

Enoch

#20
Indeed. Instantly reminded me of this :)




Ouroboros- symbol representing the eternal process and capability of something to re-create itself.
The woman like figure (or perhaps hermaphroditical figure) represent the ship and the arrival of primordial gods from the sky... it also depicts the reproduction cycle of the ancient ones... showing that Engineers were a mere slaves of the true god, their creation with the purpose to be sacrificed in order to create another creation. They have been used as hosts, but we can assume they rebelled against their gods and tried to reverse the eternal wheel of power and laws (parable of David and humans as his creators!). Perhaps thats why Engineers made humans on the first place. I think thats the ultimate story of Alien movies - rolling of the wheel of creation, recreation and destruction... all those points on the wheel actually lead to one central point that is always the same despite all those modalities and reversals.

*We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

-T.S. Eliot again. I believe they used Eliots philosophy in Arrival too,
especially regarding time and perception of time.

On the mural above, you can easily notice the triangle shape (pyramid) with an EYE on the top. There is a worm like creature crawling  from the eye end descending below towards the ancient astronauts. We can presume that the worm in some way   lead to divine creation of the egg.

At the end, it not important if those astronauts are Engineers or modern humans, the process continues despite time and any other factor. What is time after all... as T.S. Eliot put it,  In my beginning is my end. In my end is my beginning .

Thats also depicted on the mural... there is another pyramid, a reversed one...like a reversed mirror image starting with the creation of proto xeno, just at bottom of the primary pyramid. An irony of creation:

TO CREATE ONE MUST FIRST DESTROY...  not sometimes as David said... ALWAYS.


Egyptian sky Goddess Nut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu

http://alienexplorations.blogspot.rs/2008/01/secrets-of-life-cycle-tableau.html


For those interested in Lovecraft and Cthulhu Mythos:

http://www.tarrdaniel.com/documents/Hermetika/cthulhu.htm

I don know have you noticed, but they did almost everything to present David as god PAN/SATAN/PROMETHEUS/FRANKENSTEIN in Prometheus movie. He is an amalgamation of all those
charachters/



He played the flute, he spoke about the creation and destruction, he even is mischievous and curious  as Pan.

QuoteThe word pan, means everything. Therefore he represents the all-aspect of the universe; the physical world, the psychic world, the idea world and the one above all, the divine sphere of One. In this respect he is called Gnosis, which is rather a state of "existence" (we are talking high out of existence) than a termable existent. As the primarily, divine, ancient and creating idea, he is called Pan pangenitor, "the creator of all", but is also called Pan panfager, "the destroyer of all". In Latin tradition the dark aspect of Pan will be called » Dispater, the Father of the Underworld, the ruler of Dis. So we see that Pan is an ambivalent figure like Merkurius-Hermes-Toth; he has a satanic face, the Saturnic, the Sol Niger face, the face of the chaos of the under-waters, the face of the underworld, the nearly-nothing-aspect, and he has the face of the spiritual sun, the universality of above existence.

Pan's dark aspect can be traced through the centuries, and was always placed in very central position like the city of Dis in Dante's Divina Comedia, but centuries before that in the book of Enoch, giving same layers of the underworld. Therefore Pan is the Master of the Universe, not only Dispater, the lord of the chaotic under-waters and the equivalent of all dark aspects of things.

This "underworldness" was called khthonicity by the Greeks - the absolute darkness and abyss of all evil. In this chthonic under-water realm is where Dispater rules; this is where the women aspect of Nature (Physis), the Sophia, the daughter of the world is cast. By hermetics she is called Kore Kosmou ("Virgin of the World") and by the sumerian tradition Ereshkigal. She becomes the mistress of the underworld, the 'sacred whore' aspect, in contradiction to Innana, the virgin aspect.

As we see this is the lunar tradition in opposition to the solar one, where the men is the ruler of the underworld, and enters beyond to bring back the outcast woman. We find such examples in Orpheus and Euridike or the hymns of the gnosticists.

Thats the whole premise of Covenant... Two androids... replacement of one with another, but is it the good or the bad one. Or perhaps the one we thought to be the bad one was in fact the good one... Even the Covenant crew task is in fact to rescue Elizabeth Shaw - to bring back the outcast woman. Everything simply matches.


David as Master of the Universe; note the planet Saturn right above his head!!

Astronoë

Astronoë

#21
Covenant like Mountains of Madness? No. god no...not even close...



I would give monies to someone good that would create such a movie..

cliffhanger

that was really bad.

Enoch

Enoch

#23
Davids decapitation:


Norse mythology - Mímir


QuoteMímir, being a particularly wise deity, was the counselor of the gods. He owned a well, the Mímisbrunnr, the water of which granted wisdom and the power to see into the future. Odin sacrificed one of his eyes for a drink from the Mímisbrunnr.
After Mímir became part of the hostage exchange and his fellow hostage Hoenir messed up, Mímir paid the price and was beheaded by the Vanir (group of half gods). Odin managed to swipe the head from Vanir territory. He embalmed and bewitched it—making sure Mímir could still advise him, even in his decapitated state.

Astronoë

Astronoë

#24
Quote from: cliffhanger on Feb 19, 2017, 06:16:49 PM
that was really bad.

that was just some fan-made stuff taken from different movies n stuff ;) and it's a lot better than most other fan-made stuff out there..

imho i'm against guillermo del toro making it...I like his movies, just don't think he should be the one to do it...

Enoch

Enoch

#25
Have you read the screenplay for his adaptation... just action and monsters...
all the history about the Ancient Ones is not included, all the flavor of Lovecraftian horror and
depth is out...

I think there is no need for screen adaptation anymore. The idea is
derived in many movies and thats ok... let the original book be what it is.
No one can make a movie that will be near to the written material.

It was obvious Ridley embarked on the Lovceraft boat with Prometheus,
he introduced the Gods and exploration of past just like Lovecraft. Yes, Prometheus was not completely scary movie, but the atmosphere was great despite poor character writing (necessary catastrophe; why, because they struggled to create the outlines for the series of movies, not just one). I presume Covenant will introduce other monsters and maybe, just maybe the ultimate God, the ancient one, or some sinister agenda (I prefer the mix of the two). I m almost completely sure it ll be completely Lovecraftian movie...Not Mountains of Madness but pretty close, there are even hints they included motifs from several other Lovecraft stories.

Alien universe belong to Giger and Lovecraft... all the movies are in fact adaptations of Lovecraft ideas and his cosmic horror  manifest. A true fan of Lovecraft would have greatly enjoyed Prometheus, because that movie indeed succeeded to incorporate that  cosmic horror of the unknown and unknowable very well. Those who, on the other hand, like to get all the answers on the plate hated that movie. I think its time for fans to decide what they want...

At the Mountains of Madness script:
https://lovecraftzine.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/at-the-mountain-of-madness.pdf

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#26
Quote from: Enoch on Feb 19, 2017, 07:06:18 PM
A true fan of Lovecraft would have greatly enjoyed Prometheus, because that movie indeed succeeded to incorporate that  cosmic horror of the unknown and unknowable very well
Absolutely not

Alien was rife with Lovecraftian elements and was by itself a resonating echo of At the Mountains of Madness, Prometheus capsized all that by the very intention of its original writer -- Spaihts -- who claimed that the story had to be relatable, thus the hinge of it -- the Space Jockey -- had to become relatable in order to drive said "relatable" story. Combined with Scott's 90s-born idea that the Derelict Pilot was a suit, there came the Engineers

"if you were to try to reach back in time for the history of the universe we glimpse in the original Alien, you are inevitably concerning yourself with the affairs of non-human beings — both the deadly predator that is the through-line of the Alien franchise and the enigmatic dead alien giant that is the great mystery at the beginning of Alien... [they] are interesting entities not fully explained, but to keep an audience interested in those things it couldn't be abstraction, it couldn't be a purely 'alien story' about things we can't relate to. It was going to have to be connected to our own story. Somehow the story of those creatures was going to have to be connected to the human story, not just our history but our fate to come." (Spaihts, The Furious Gods)

so what you have is the complete reversal of the thematic where in deep space you don't find other things but you find your makers/original ancestors or what have you who look exactly like you do. That's Von Daniken. Instead of finding unknowable things in deep space humanity finds itself. Deep as shit all you want (fits with the film's pretentiousness) but Lovecraftian it ain't, and any parallel to At the Mountains of Madness is purely superficial

I elaborate more on the matter here

NickisSmart

NickisSmart

#27
Quote from: Astronoë on Feb 19, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Covenant like Mountains of Madness? No. god no...not even close...

Care to explain? And what the hell was that trailer?

I think Prometheus wasn't really Lovecraftian at all. It just lacks the tone and horror and "unfolding" and hidden terror of Lovecraft's work.

Enoch

Enoch

#28
Wait a moment. In Prometheus we get to see many unexplained things, we got many new mysteries. Yes, with introduction of Engineers the mystery behind Space Jockey was in a sense diminished, but not necessarily! Spaihts, just realized that in order to make a mystery relevant almost 40 years after the original, one must make it important to the overall human story. What questions would make humans go to the stars and to travel some distant galaxies, only something that is in human interest... and the story of Gods (and immortality) is of human interests. It always was. (They needed an "invitation", an invitation delivered to them long ago; a story required a tool which was to put everything in motion, maybe it was to the expanse to the overall Alien and Lovecraftian mystery, but it served its purpose ) Now, crew of the Prometheus thought they would find gods but they totally missed the point. Ridley himslef repeated in numerous interview during the period of Covenant script writing that Engineers are not the Gods - NOT the main guys, not at all. They were just a paperclip, a fine tool to make a story and mystery relevant again (relevant to human interest, to Weylands interest). With the inclusion of something known or something that appeared to be known, they succeeded to connect Prometheus story with the relevant segments of original Alien.   Now, humanoid Engineers could very well be just an imitators of more ancient (completely mysterious) race, and that fact would completely reinvigorate the original mystery of the Space Jockey. How to explain murals and reliefs on LV-223...how to explain black goo? All that could very well be a stolen technology, and the Covenant has a great chance to remove the taint from Prometheus. Prometheus is a point of view story... We dont get a full picture, with Covenant that could change. What was in Prometheus a (presumed) personal story of human race and its origins, in Covenant could turn to be just a small crumb in much greater puzzle. As Shaw put it: They aren't what we thought they were. The whole story was a decoy, just a small portion of truth lying somewhere in the Universe. Hope Covenant  will succeed to return to Lovecraftian roots. I could be entirely wrong, in that case everything I just wrote was a mere justification of Prometheus errors and simple wishes of a dedicated fan of the original. 

OmegaZilla

OmegaZilla

#29
I'd love to ascribe to these thoughts Enoch, but you're probably being more positively creative with your single post than these filmmakers are ever going to be with these new films

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