Is Fox Trying Too Hard To Create A Marvel-esque EU? - AvPGalaxy Podcast #40

Started by Corporal Hicks, Sep 29, 2016, 08:08:12 AM

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Is Fox Trying Too Hard To Create A Marvel-esque EU? - AvPGalaxy Podcast #40 (Read 16,979 times)

Local Trouble

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 09:29:41 PMWithout her - it's not the same story, so you kinda do need her.

Does the story explain how they opened the shuttle's hatch without disturbing the harpoon gun?

Kurai

Kurai

#31
Quote from: windebieste on Oct 03, 2016, 09:03:25 PM
I don't think Scott has ever provided any inclination that any of his movies are part of any shared Universe.

The inclination is very much there, the Blu-Ray disc was chock full of references to Blade Runner and Ridley Scott innitially wanted to name Weyland Industries Weyland-Tyrell.

QuoteThere's one idea that I'm very sad that we didn't do. Ridley, one day, came in and said, "You know, I'm thinking what if it's the Weyland-Tyrell Corporation? Is that cool?" And we're like, "Dude, that's really cool. You gotta do it!"
http://www.firstshowing.net/2012/does-this-prometheus-easter-egg-hint-at-a-blade-runner-tie-in/

Will they do it? Like I said, Ridley Scott is producer for the upcoming Blade Runner movie, so... Who knows?  :P

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 09:29:41 PM
Ripley's presence along with the Narcissus and Ash working at odds to the characters are integral to the story. You might have had an interesting story without them, but you can't just cleanly lift them out.  And as such I find some of the 'you didn't need Ripley in that story' criticisms a bit misguided.  Without her - it's not the same story, so you kinda do need her.

That's exactly the point. Methinks you're seeing things as "This is how it was done, thus it couldn't have been different."  ??? We aren't talking about a rewrite of the story simply excluding Ripley, it's all about what could have been and how Ripley being left out would have been beneficial. Would the same starting story branch out differently without Ripley? Yes, that's the point.  ::)

There's also the point that no Ripley makes more sense in terms of the greater picture of continuity.  :P

SM

QuoteThe inclination is very much there, the Blu-Ray disc was chock full of references to Blade Runner and Ridley Scott innitially wanted to name Weyland Industries Weyland-Tyrell.

All of which has been well documented as a joke.

QuoteMethinks you're seeing things as "This is how it was done, thus it couldn't have been different."

I'm not sure you youthinks that, since I said "You might have had an interesting story without them, but you can't just cleanly lift them out."

[insert condescending rolling eyes smiley]

windebieste

Quote from: Kurai on Oct 03, 2016, 09:50:17 PM
Quote from: windebieste on Oct 03, 2016, 09:03:25 PM
I don't think Scott has ever provided any inclination that any of his movies are part of any shared Universe.

The inclination is very much there, the Blu-Ray disc was chock full of references to Blade Runner and Ridley Scott innitially wanted to name Weyland Industries Weyland-Tyrell.

I see, it will be very interesting to see how this all pans out, then. 

Personally, I don't see the necessity for it.  These properties work well independently.  'Weyland-Tyrell' is conceptually redundant, therfore completely irrelevant, now. There's no reason to an obsolete moniker of that nature is any reason to believe intended continuity any more than Easter Eggs on a DVD/BluRay are intended to connect such universes.  They're gags and homages.  Does that mean the appearance of the Millenium Falcon in 'Blade Runner' (which is prominently onscreen for several seconds right in front of the viewer as an architectural feature) connects 'Blade Runner' to 'Star Wars'? 

To my knowledge ( I may be wrong - wouldn't be the first time.  lol.)  Scott has never openly stated these Universes are connected.  Until that happens, it's all speculation.  Besides.  These Universes are properties of very, very different owners.  The likelihood of them ever dovetailing is near non-existent.

We get the 'AvP' EU simply because 20th Century Fox owns them both.  It's why IronMan and Thor can be in the same Universe because Disney owns Marvel.  'Superman vs Batman' is based on characters and situations owned by DC.

'Blade Runner' and 'ALIEN' together in the same Universe is as unlikely as 'Batman vs IronMan' ever happening.  The ownership is completely different.  Crossover licences such as 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit' are extremely rare.  I don't expect Fox and Warner to indulge in such a collaboration.  It's just too expensive and risky.

So, different Owners.  Different Universes.

-Windebieste.

SM

He's talked about similarities between the Company and Tyrell on commentaries, but never in a way that says they're linked.  Damon Lindelof talks about it on the Prometheus commentary as well and flat out says they're not linked.

windebieste

You'll see Mickey Mouse team up with Spiderman before Blade Runner operatives are seen carrying pulse rifles. 

-Windebieste.

Kurai

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 10:19:52 PM
All of which has been well documented as a joke.

Need I remind you, AvP has its' origins in a very similar headnod "joke".  :laugh:

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 10:19:52 PM
I'm not sure you youthinks that, since I said "You might have had an interesting story without them, but you can't just cleanly lift them out."
[insert condescending rolling eyes smiley]

Ripley was shoehorned in, Lebbon did his best but she was still a detriment to the story in my opinion and the story could have been just as good, if not better, without her. They can be cleanly lifted out and yes, the story would change, but she isn't integral, as you put it. The Dog-Alien civilization is interesting without her, the failing ship is interesting without her, the character interaction is interesting without her and the mining facility is interesting without her.

Quote from: windebieste on Oct 03, 2016, 10:21:35 PM
So, different Owners.  Different Universes.

You're quite right there, Warner Bros is doing the Blade Runner movie. We're more likely to have Batman tangle with Replicants than Engineers. Sad, but that's the way of the world.  :(

windebieste

Quote from: Kurai on Oct 03, 2016, 11:21:20 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 10:19:52 PM
All of which has been well documented as a joke.

Need I remind you, AvP has its' origins in a very similar headnod "joke".  :laugh:

For sure; and it's funny on the surface.  Keep in mind, there's a very clear issue of Ownership going on there.  That 'gag' was largely possible because Dark Horse was in possession of both 'ALIEN' and 'PREDATOR' licences to begin with.  Licences both granted by Fox so organising the legal side would have been relatively easy - and inexpensive. 

Without that connection of Licencing along with Ownership, the chances of 'ALIENS vs PREDATOR' ever happening would have been severely diminished.  You won't see Mickey Mouse's head in a Predator trophy collection without some kind of agreement on the part of both 20th Century and Disney.  Now that would be funny.  :laugh:  Unfortunately, as good as it sounds it's not likely to happen.

Things like 'Archie vs Predator' don't happen without a lot of legal leg work behind the scenes.  That is, a lot of expensive legal leg work.  I sometimes wonder how a comic like that even gets to hit store shelves...

-Windebieste.

The Bonus Situation

You should give Sea of Sorrows a try. Its got minimal references to the films and their characters, making it truly an ORIGINAL story, unlike the other two books claim. Its also very well balanced: its got the build up, character development, suspense and then the action, unlike Out of the Shadows "And there was blood" and dropships start crashing already on the second page, or its cliche lines like "structure seems intact, they still have power", or River of Pain 75% of it was just describing the love interest between the main character and Anne, and then when the aliens come it was like 'oh, 15-20 were taken yesterday, oh those that stayed behind (about 50 people) were taken, it just ends very quickly.

SM

If the story is changed (no means of escape, and no antagonist other than the Aliens) - then how is her presence not integral?  The story as it is, needs her.  Without her, it's not the same story.  It might have the same premise, but would go off in different direction after that.  Unless it's just some random shuttle that turns up with it's own evil AI and sleeping woman called Billie.

QuoteNeed I remind you, AvP has its' origins in a very similar headnod "joke".

I don't believe Dark Horse regarded their comics as a "joke".  Nor do many fans.

Kurai

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 11:40:16 PM
If the story is changed (no means of escape, and no antagonist other than the Aliens) - then how is her presence not integral?  The story as it is, needs her.  Without her, it's not the same story.  It might have the same premise, but would go off in different direction after that.  Unless it's just some random shuttle that turns up with it's own evil AI and sleeping woman called Billie.

Without Ripley, the crew would have fought harder for the Samson, the lander ship. You're right, it would go off in a different direction after that, that's kind of the whole point of what I was saying... We're going to go in a loop here again because I'm talking about how the story could have worked without her and you're talking about how the exact same end point couldn't be reached without her. You're right, but that's not what I've been talking about.

Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 11:40:16 PM
I don't believe Dark Horse regarded their comics as a "joke".  Nor do many fans.

Sigh... Alien skull, Predator 2, head nod, reference. Joke was in quotation marks because you called the Prometheus Blu-Ray content and Scott's consideration for the name a joke. If you or anyone is offended by that then... Just sigh...  :(

SM

SM

#41
AvP had its origins in Dark Horse comics, that predate Predator 2 by about a year.

QuoteJoke was in quotation marks because you called the Prometheus Blu-Ray content and Scott's consideration for the name a joke.

But it was literally a "very lightly intentioned joke".

I'm not sure the sighing is helping reinforce anything.

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#42
Quote from: SM on Oct 03, 2016, 07:58:07 PM
"NO RETCONS AND SHOEHORNING! 

EXCEPT FOR ISOLATION!!!  MORE OF THAT, LESS OF EVEYRTHING ELSE!!"

Granted. However, that didn't turn out to really be shoehorned. It ended up being very fluid and natural to the story. The retcon - yeah, it was a retcon to what we're presented with on-screen in the SE but it wasn't intrusive or as unlikely as the others, I don't think.

Quote
As for the title of the podcast - it's misnamed.  What Fox is doing isn't Marvel-esque.  Marvels comics and the films based on them wildly differ, and are separate continuities.  What Fox is doing is trying to is what Star Wars did with it's EU - trying to make the films and EU as cohesive as possible.

Blame RidgeTop for that one.  :laugh: It's a bit of misnomer, I think, but people seem to think of these big multiarcing stories as a Marvel-type thing now-a-days.

Kurai

Quote from: SM on Oct 04, 2016, 12:01:39 AM
AvP had its origins in Dark Horse comics, that predate Predator 2 by about a year.

First AvP Comic = June 1st 1990
Predator 2 = November 19th 1990

Huh, 5 months apart with AvP coming first. Honestly thought Predator 2 was an 80s movie for some reason. Ah well, the more you know! Thanks :D

Quote from: SM on Oct 04, 2016, 12:01:39 AM
But it was literally a "very lightly intentioned joke".

Never said it wasn't a joke. :)
But alas, different companies puts out that fire of hope that lore from a new Blade Runner could flesh out the Universe. >_<

So yeah, the correlations could be drawn closer to Star Wars rather than the Marvel Cinematic Universe. AvP and AvP:R is a thing, but we won't really know until Covenant if there's a chance in hell of them still being canon.

Prometheus
Alien prequel Trilogy
Alien Quadrilogy

We need a new AvP movie that follows the lore of the universe, a USCM solo movie or a new movie following a different story all together in the same universe for it to really be Marvel-esque. :D

Corporal Hicks

Quote from: The Bonus Situation on Oct 03, 2016, 11:38:16 PM
You should give Sea of Sorrows a try. Its got minimal references to the films and their characters, making it truly an ORIGINAL story, unlike the other two books claim. Its also very well balanced: its got the build up, character development, suspense and then the action, unlike Out of the Shadows "And there was blood" and dropships start crashing already on the second page, or its cliche lines like "structure seems intact, they still have power", or River of Pain 75% of it was just describing the love interest between the main character and Anne, and then when the aliens come it was like 'oh, 15-20 were taken yesterday, oh those that stayed behind (about 50 people) were taken, it just ends very quickly.

I think I enjoyed Sea of Sorrows the most out of that trilogy. It felt like the old EU to me. Still had some issues with it - pacing grinding to a halt in the middle, a few too many throw-away characters and again, a forced relation to Ripley but I still enjoyed it. I didn't hate any of the initial trilogy, I thought they were all solid reads but I did take issue to with some key aspects of them.

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