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Author Topic: A way to make Blomkamp's Alien work without retcon...  (Read 14423 times)

The Eighth Passenger
May 21, 2016, 09:25:22 PM
Reply #30 on: May 21, 2016, 09:25:22 PM
Q
It still leaves you with two branched universes.  Each having its own EU.  Understandably, the old EU may never continue again, but you never know.  You can't deny there will be 2 resulting branches.

It doesn't though, because I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy on the fact they'll never touch the old stuff again.

Unless Blomkamp's film is a real stinker. Then they'll happily do a 180 degree turn again.

Ok, this is all great, but does anyone actually want to venture any ideas of how it might work to make Blomkamp's film work with A3 and AR?  That's the premise of this thread.  We already know that there are many disparate opinions on the subject, but if it were to work, how would you make that happen in the least convoluted way?

There simply isn't a way that isn't either ridiculous or just outright stupid. If Ripley and Hicks are in it, just scrap the old films. It'll be a lot less silly all round.

Quite. Only way to go is to ignore Alien 3 and A:R completely.

All this cloning nonsense is not only contrived but all it will serve to do is to make Alien 3 an even worse film. What point is there in watching a film about Ripley, Hicks and Newt clones? Clone Ripley's™ sacrifice will be completely pointless in Alien 3 when Real Ripley™ encounters the Xenomorphs again a few years later in Blomkamps film. And no-one will give a fig about Clone Hicks™ and Clone Newt's™ deaths in Alien 3 anymore. It just completely neuters the film's emotional impact.

Alien 3 should be left as is, no retconing. Leave it be as an alternate sequel to Alien and Aliens because Blomkamp's film will not be everybody's cup of tea no matter how well it turns out.


HuDaFuK
May 21, 2016, 09:44:03 PM
Reply #31 on: May 21, 2016, 09:44:03 PM
Q
Unless Blomkamp's film is a real stinker. Then they'll happily do a 180 degree turn again.

Even then, I'd be pretty surprised if they went back. That'd be the studio admitting they were wrong, and they don't tend to do that.

More likely they'd just let it lie for a while, and concentrate on Riddles' prequels.


Rankles75
May 22, 2016, 01:14:36 AM
Reply #32 on: May 22, 2016, 01:14:36 AM
Q
It still leaves you with two branched universes.  Each having its own EU.  Understandably, the old EU may never continue again, but you never know.  You can't deny there will be 2 resulting branches.

It doesn't though, because I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy on the fact they'll never touch the old stuff again.

Unless Blomkamp's film is a real stinker. Then they'll happily do a 180 degree turn again.

Ok, this is all great, but does anyone actually want to venture any ideas of how it might work to make Blomkamp's film work with A3 and AR?  That's the premise of this thread.  We already know that there are many disparate opinions on the subject, but if it were to work, how would you make that happen in the least convoluted way?

There simply isn't a way that isn't either ridiculous or just outright stupid. If Ripley and Hicks are in it, just scrap the old films. It'll be a lot less silly all round.

Quite. Only way to go is to ignore Alien 3 and A:R completely.

All this cloning nonsense is not only contrived but all it will serve to do is to make Alien 3 an even worse film. What point is there in watching a film about Ripley, Hicks and Newt clones? Clone Ripley's™ sacrifice will be completely pointless in Alien 3 when Real Ripley™ encounters the Xenomorphs again a few years later in Blomkamps film. And no-one will give a fig about Clone Hicks™ and Clone Newt's™ deaths in Alien 3 anymore. It just completely neuters the film's emotional impact.

Alien 3 should be left as is, no retconing. Leave it be as an alternate sequel to Alien and Aliens because Blomkamp's film will not be everybody's cup of tea no matter how well it turns out.

Nailed it...


irn
May 25, 2016, 12:15:35 PM
Reply #33 on: May 25, 2016, 12:15:35 PM
Q
Multiverse insanity with an Alien 5 (Aliens 2) then combined along with what Prometheus done with its ridiculous Star Trek-esque fantasy crap about human origins would just completely murder the legitimacy of the franchise once and for all. There would be no going back.

What made the first three films so good is that they were sci-fi but yet believable. It had a gritty reality to it with the characters, actions and settings.

I've said it before; Alien 3 was a perfect ending to the Ripley story arc. Her journey was doomed from the very minute they picked up that signal on LV-426. Even the production problems that film went through add a kind of poetic hopelessnes to the story arc. By having the Heroic Trio in a big battle with the xenomorphs and living happily ever after would just cheaping what was built in the first two flims. It's not what Alien is about. Darkness, misfortune and dispair is what was discovered in isolated deep space; not cliche endings and happy families.


windebieste
May 27, 2016, 12:57:30 AM
Reply #34 on: May 27, 2016, 12:57:30 AM
Q
For sure.  At that point, Fox should just sell the whole broken franchise to Disney for $2b. and be done with it.

Disney can then add 'ALIEN' to the Greater Marvel Universe.  Ripley can have a new cape emblazoned with the Big R and possess Super Powers; among them, the ability to self-resurrect and change the future.

Of course, pulse rifles, pulse rifles, pulse rifles and more pulse rifles will be needed.  Captain America toting a pulse rifle.  Now, who doesn't want to see that?  Then for further brain dead spectacle to keep the bubblegum Saturday night appeased for 2 hours we will need Iron Man fighting xenos while The Hulk tackles The Queen.

On the other hand, when it's a foregone conclusion, why would you even bother?

BWAHAHAHAAAAAA!  and ROFL.

-Windebieste.


Perfect-Organism
May 27, 2016, 01:09:41 AM
Reply #35 on: May 27, 2016, 01:09:41 AM
Q
It still leaves you with two branched universes.  Each having its own EU.  Understandably, the old EU may never continue again, but you never know.  You can't deny there will be 2 resulting branches.

It doesn't though, because I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy on the fact they'll never touch the old stuff again.

Unless Blomkamp's film is a real stinker. Then they'll happily do a 180 degree turn again.

Ok, this is all great, but does anyone actually want to venture any ideas of how it might work to make Blomkamp's film work with A3 and AR?  That's the premise of this thread.  We already know that there are many disparate opinions on the subject, but if it were to work, how would you make that happen in the least convoluted way?

There simply isn't a way that isn't either ridiculous or just outright stupid. If Ripley and Hicks are in it, just scrap the old films. It'll be a lot less silly all round.

Quite. Only way to go is to ignore Alien 3 and A:R completely.

All this cloning nonsense is not only contrived but all it will serve to do is to make Alien 3 an even worse film. What point is there in watching a film about Ripley, Hicks and Newt clones? Clone Ripley's™ sacrifice will be completely pointless in Alien 3 when Real Ripley™ encounters the Xenomorphs again a few years later in Blomkamps film. And no-one will give a fig about Clone Hicks™ and Clone Newt's™ deaths in Alien 3 anymore. It just completely neuters the film's emotional impact.

Alien 3 should be left as is, no retconing. Leave it be as an alternate sequel to Alien and Aliens because Blomkamp's film will not be everybody's cup of tea no matter how well it turns out.

Well, when you put it that way, I find it difficult not to agree.  To make the characters in Alien 3 clones, would indeed neuter the film's emotional impact.  And on that note, I raise the white flag and agree with you that it makes no sense to make Blomkamp's film work with Alien 3 and AR.  Even if it could be made to work logically, seamlessly, and unconvolutedly, Alien 3 would still be diminished.  So on that note... Bring on the retcon!


windebieste
May 27, 2016, 01:59:13 AM
Reply #36 on: May 27, 2016, 01:59:13 AM
Q
All the problems here are solved if fans just accept Ripley, Hicks and Newt are dead. 

Make a new 'ALIENS' film that runs parallel to 'ALIEN 3' with fresh characters = Win/Win for everyone.

But no...

The Boo-Hoo Brigade want The Invincible Trio to go gung-ho across the Galaxy, in the knowledge that Ripley and Co will always defeat an ever diminishing menace.

Here's an idea for you... 

Maybe 'ALIENS' should be targeted for retconning.  Maybe the Boo-Hoo Brigade should find out what it feels like to be a fan of a movie that's under threat of being removed (or at least reduced in significance).  Maybe Hicks and company should be excised from the series completely.  How does that sound, Mr. Boo Hoo? 

How does that feel to know that some people WANT to see YOUR MOVIE ditched either partially or whole?  ...they do exist.

HOW DOES IT FEEL??? 

Do you ever consider asking fans of 'ALIEN 3' or 'ALIEN: Resurrection' how it feels to have their movies of preference bullied into oblivion? 

You should try wearing that shoe for once.  You won't, because it hurts and pain avoidance is your big crutch.

Some fans are such cry babies.  I hope Blomkamp gives this whole retcon nonsense a good swift kick out the door.  It's doing nothing but damaging the series. 

-Windebieste.






Perfect-Organism
May 27, 2016, 03:51:42 AM
Reply #37 on: May 27, 2016, 03:51:42 AM
Q
All the problems here are solved if fans just accept Ripley, Hicks and Newt are dead. 

Make a new 'ALIENS' film that runs parallel to 'ALIEN 3' with fresh characters = Win/Win for everyone.

But no...

The Boo-Hoo Brigade want The Invincible Trio to go gung-ho across the Galaxy, in the knowledge that Ripley and Co will always defeat an ever diminishing menace.

Here's an idea for you... 

Maybe 'ALIENS' should be targeted for retconning.  Maybe the Boo-Hoo Brigade should find out what it feels like to be a fan of a movie that's under threat of being removed (or at least reduced in significance).  Maybe Hicks and company should be excised from the series completely.  How does that sound, Mr. Boo Hoo? 

How does that feel to know that some people WANT to see YOUR MOVIE ditched either partially or whole?  ...they do exist.

HOW DOES IT FEEL??? 

Do you ever consider asking fans of 'ALIEN 3' or 'ALIEN: Resurrection' how it feels to have their movies of preference bullied into oblivion? 

You should try wearing that shoe for once.  You won't, because it hurts and pain avoidance is your big crutch.

Some fans are such cry babies.  I hope Blomkamp gives this whole retcon nonsense a good swift kick out the door.  It's doing nothing but damaging the series. 

-Windebieste.

Can I get you a tissue Winde?

An Aliens film that does not fix the continuity is not a win / win for everyone.  Firstly, the Aliens film carried the franchise for decades.  It was often considered the superior film to the original, which was an amazing feat in and of itself.  The difference between Aliens and Alien 3 is that Aliens did not go in and butcher what the preceding film accomplished.  It respectfully built on that, whereas Alien 3 came in and literally pissed on Aliens.  It was like some sort of cheap thrill after James Cameron's magnum opus.

Moreover, nobody will ever come over to your house and take away your precious copies of A3 and AR.  You get to keep those coasters.

Simply put, Alien 3 was an illogical, cheap, jarring, and inappropriate continuation of what Aliens set up.  The studio wouldn't put in the money to do a "homeworld", so they literally ran the series into the ground.  The technology is there now, and the interest in the franchise is hot, so let's see what an alternate take on an Aliens sequel would be like.  Face it, the whole premise of Alien 3 is f--ked.  If Bishop didn't put those eggs there, then how did they get there?  When will you stop justifying and glorifying a film which is cheap unresolved science fiction?

I know in a few years you will be on here saying how much you love Blomkamp's film.  Resistance is futile. But boy will your face be red when that happens...


windebieste
May 27, 2016, 04:11:55 AM
Reply #38 on: May 27, 2016, 04:11:55 AM
Q
All I hear from you right now is Boo-hoo, boo-hoo, boo-hoo-hoo.  Save the Kleenex.  You need it more.

Ripley and Hicks are DEAD and have been dead for a QUARTER OF A CENTURY and the Blomkamp Boo-Hoo Brigade is just a bunch of noisy whiners.

Ditch Rippers, Hixxorz and Noot already.  Long live 'ALIEN 3' (despite its problems.  I never denied them) and Long Live 'ALIEN: Resurrection', too, (despite the fact it's a janky effort; at least I respect other peoples' love for it.) These movies are part of the core Story Arc and have been for 2 decades now.

'ALIEN 5' could just as easily be a tangential movie.  A spin off without any characters from the main story arc and still be worthwhile.  Many of the comics and games take this path.  You'd be happy with that, I'm sure.  'Rogue One - A Star Wars Story' is already paving a way as a template for this to be done in a credible manner.

...but no.  Space Family Ripley  must be front and center, always, with the entire story shoe horned around aging actors that haven't played these roles in decades.  It's a Fool's errand. 

Most people don't really care if Rippers and Co. are in Blomkamp's movie or not.  They just want a good follow up film featuring the USCM conflicting with xenos.  In which case it aint too much of a stretch to make that movie with fresh characters and completely do away with the need for a retcon. 

This way, Blomkamp's movie and 'ALIEN3' (and by extension 'A:R') can all exist in the same Universe without introducing more inconsistencies than we already have. 

Believe me, everyone would be happy with that.  Even you.  Except maybe an overtly reliance of nostalgia is cramping an ability to appreciate something a little more than reducing the series to unsatisfying Saturday morning cartoons.   Which is what this series will become when Rippers and Co. become Untouchable Bastions against which Xenos have become completely useless. 

Bah! If that happens, then the Blomkamp Boo-Hoo Brigade will be the death of this series.

-Windebieste.




Perfect-Organism
May 27, 2016, 04:24:31 AM
Reply #39 on: May 27, 2016, 04:24:31 AM
Q
You know why Hicks, Ripley, and Newt aren't dead?  BECAUSE IT'S A WORK OF FICTION!  Moreover, there is no blueprint to it.  If there was some sort of grand design to the whole thing, I would understand your rant, but what you're hoping for is to cancel the last opportunity to continue the series in the same vibe as the Aliens film with some of the key original actors.  For Pete's sake, you're getting a tonne of new material that doesn't include Ripley and company.  We have 3 sequels to Prometheus coming out.  Surely one film with some excellent established characters isn't too much to ask for.  Nobody is saying that the triumvirate of Aliens survivors has to live forever, but at least the story could go in a direction that makes more sense and is more true to what most people would have preferred as a sequel to Aliens.


windebieste
May 27, 2016, 04:37:13 AM
Reply #40 on: May 27, 2016, 04:37:13 AM
Q
Open up a fresh storyline with new characters involving the continued struggles between the USCM and Aliens in a credible parallel storyline.  It's not that hard to accept without a retcon.  Really.

Then Rippers, Hixxorz and Noot can then be left to Rest in Peace, the way they should. Heroes lost for a worthy cause in a fight against an enemy that they cannot win against alone.

-Windebieste.


Perfect-Organism
May 27, 2016, 04:54:27 AM
Reply #41 on: May 27, 2016, 04:54:27 AM
Q
Winde, OMG, our entire fascination with the series is based on a nostalgia of one sort or another.  Who's to say that a nostalgia for Ripley, (the actual human character in the film) is more or less valid than the nostalgia for the alien (basically just an animal at the end of the day)?  If you want a really fresh story, go for one that is not franchise driven.  It's the only way to be sure.  It's actually very mature for Fox to realize and say, "oops, we did bad.  We painted ourselves into a corner, and killed off our main character(s).  Let's go back and fix it."

The idea that continuing the story with Alien 3 and AR left in the sequence is somehow fresh is as absurd as saying that the new Rogue One Star Wars film is fresh.  It's old hat!  All of it.  At least doing the retcon is an honest way of acknowledging the nostalgia and diving straight for that brilliant moment we all felt 30 years ago, and not pretending that keeping the last 2 films in canon will somehow give us something "fresh".  Keeping those last 2 duds in there is indefensible.  They're dragging the whole series down.  It's common knowledge, even to the casual fans, and non-fans.

I still love your trading cards Bro!  Lol


426Buddy
May 27, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Reply #42 on: May 27, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Q

Personally I'm a big fan of 1, 2, & 3. Even though I don't really care much for A:R I dont have any desire to see it retconned. Especially when there is no need to, you could tell a lot of stories involving thd alien between 3 & 4. Ripley, Hicks, & Newt should stay dead. Their demise never really bothered me much.

On another note I don't blame fans who prefer Aliens more than the other films for what Blomkamp and weaver have come up with. I also think alien 3 has grown a pretty decent following over the years, enough to call it a cult classic even.


Russ
May 27, 2016, 09:59:40 AM
Reply #43 on: May 27, 2016, 09:59:40 AM
Q
Quote
I've said it before; Alien 3 was a perfect ending to the Ripley story arc. Her journey was doomed from the very minute they picked up that signal on LV-426.

Quote
Simply put, Alien 3 was an illogical, cheap, jarring, and inappropriate continuation of what Aliens set up.

I agree with both these polar opposites. I think that 3 was really poorly set up: film is about character and people were invested in those characters. To kill them off before the film starts is just bad writing. Kill them off during the film - give them a satisfying ending. Or something else. But as I say, I think a lot of the grief 3 gets is down to this. (and the magic eggs).

But - it was a good arc for the character. Even if the beginning is cheap and jarring.

I really think that the dream thing is what they're going to go with. I know that most hate the idea - the "cheap" accusation could be leveled at that angle. But its not jarring - I think Hicks reminded me on another thread that there were professional dreamers for entertainment set up in the novels and/or comics. Prometheus sets up lucid, third person hyperspace dreams.

So that's in the continuity. It's not even fan theory or "just from the novels" any more. It's up there, its been set up. In all the threads on this, the clones (as good as POs idea is) and all the rest is just jumping through hoops.

I can't see them ignoring the 3 and the (horrid) Resurrection entirely (indeed, he said he will acknowledge them IIRC) - so I'd put money on the dream sequence conveniently hand-waving those movies.

3/4 (even outside of here in the real world *loll) are divisive movies. Aliens isn't. Everyone loved it. Everyone wanted "the same but different." They didn't get it and nothing that isn't "the same but different" that has been served up since 86 has been looked at barely half-way decent. Most loathe AvP and AvP:R. Most where "meh" on Prometheus (sure it made money, but it came and went - in terms of impact, it was a pebble compared to the meteor of Aliens).

So. If you have a plot device (hand-wave... cop out... shitty terrible idea... call it what you will) that has been set up in that Universe's past (David/Prometheus) and you have a problem that you don't want totally ignore canon but you don't want to use it... what are you going to do?

Use the plot device would be my guess. It solves all the problems and you could handle it in a few shots like they did at the beginning of Alien3 with the mystery egg and all that. A few flashes... a cgi-youngered Sigourney's face twitching.... a few more flashes.

Bingo. We get what's gone on - it was all a dream and now all is right with the Alien-verse (for many people at least). Then again - I bet they'll kill Ripley and Hicks off at the end of it, but that's another story.

As was said - the best way is have this a parallel to 3... but that won't happen. We know Weaver and Biehn are on board (pretty much) we've seen that Rippers is a big part of the movie... so I think the only neat way to do it is by using what the audience already knows.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 10:07:07 AM by Russ »

Corporal Hicks
May 27, 2016, 11:31:21 AM
Reply #44 on: May 27, 2016, 11:31:21 AM
Q
Let's keep the disagreements respectful lads and ladies. No need to be having digs at each other.


 

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