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Author Topic: A way to make Blomkamp's Alien work without retcon...  (Read 14274 times)

Perfect-Organism
May 18, 2016, 02:47:00 AM
Topic on: May 18, 2016, 02:47:00 AM
Q
I posted this on April 29 in the Topic:  "ALIEN DAY: Sigourney Weaver Talks A5 at Aliens Special Event" thread.  I would be really curious if anybody can come up with a less convoluted way than the below to make all the films work together...


On principle I agree that Alien 3 and Alien: R should just be ignored, but if they really had to ...

I think I have a solution for everything.  I have taken into account mostly what Cainsson said here, though keeping in mind what the skeptical Mr. Huda had said.  To make the story make sense, there would have to be motivation for the cloning.  I think I figured it out in a way that is neither convoluted, nor requires a retcon, and can in fact sync everything up nicely.  So here goes, in point form.

-Firstly, we have to accept the premise that Bishop is operating under conflicting directives.  Firstly, he is unable to harm a human being, but secondly, he has a specific request to secure an  return an alien to company labs.  But would Bishop consider a clone to be a human?  Do you see where I am going with this?

-So how did the eggs get on the Sulaco?  Simply, when Bishop was sent into the tunnels to get the second Dropship from the Sulaco, he went and secured 3 eggs from the egg chamber before the second dropship arrived.  At this time he knew that there were only 3 survivors.  He packed them neatly on the Dropship for return to company labs.  At no time did he intend any malice towards any of the humans though, because since he was a scientific android sent on a scientific mission, he had a lab on board the Sulaco where he could store and secure such organisms.

-Once everyone is sleeping, Bishop wakes up and gets to work.  But he is a bit of a spaz now that he is damaged.  During the weeks of sleep that everyone is under, he clones Ripley, Newt and Hicks for the purpose of incubation.  This does not conflict with his prime directive, because they are not humans.  He could just deliver the eggs whole to the company labs, but he is concerned that they may hatch and screw things up for everyone, so he figures the best bet is to have the eggs get fertilized inside the clones, so that they can be frozen for further study once he arrives back at company labs.

-He successfully impregnates CloneRipley, and while he is delivering the second egg, being a spaz, he falls over, it hatches, and just goes for Clone Hicks on its own but it cracks the glass, hurts itself, and the blood starts the electrical fire that destroys the ship.  This also explains why we have the burn marks inside the capsule from the acid. The clones are jettisoned along with Bishop to Fury 161, along with data on the cloning methods used.  Perhaps Bishop was funneling DNA directly from the originals and that is how memories got included?  I know this bit is a stretch.   So we have a dead facehugger that causes burn marks in the capsule, an impregnated Ripley Clone, Clones of Newt and Hicks, Bishop plus 1 unopened egg in the capsule, + the data.  When Bishop is reactivated in Alien 3, he sees that his Ripley clone is conscious and has all her memories and now that makes him guilty of violating his prime code.  So he asks to be deactivated.  The other egg hatches and impregnates the dog or ox.  Hicks and Newt clones never once had an y consciousness.

-In Alien Resurrection, the marines are still trying to use Bishops original data for cloning purposes.  In fact the previous point explains exactly why they went the cloning route, and how Ripley 8 was able to have memories.  They never bothered to clone Hicks and Newt because they had no Alien DNA associated with them.

-And that leaves the 3 remaining survivors from Aliens who are also jettisoned in their own EEV, but without Bishop.  That will deserve an explanation.  Then they are floating out there until Alien 5.  They are picked up eventually after they age about 30 years in stasis.  Ultimately, the theme of Alien 5 could be about them learning what happened.  Perhaps they could even end up frozen again after Alien 5 so that Ripley meets Ripley 8 eventually..


windebieste
May 18, 2016, 04:40:03 AM
Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 04:40:03 AM
Q
Here's a simple 3 step way of making Blomkamp's 'ALIENS' movie working without retconning 'ALIEN3' and 'ALIEN: Resurrection':

1). Ditch Ripley, Hicks and Newt as characters. 

2). Make a new direct movie sequel to 'ALIENS' with fresh characters that depicts events parallel to 'ALIEN 3' and then there's no need for any retcon at all. 

3). Problem solved.


This insistent idea that these 3 characters must be in the movie is where the problem lies.  Blomkamp's proposal woulda been Great - in 1988.  Not now.  I'm disappointed he wasn't around to make this proposal back then.  My attitude to it would be one of full support. 

Mind you, I still believe Blomkamp is a great choice to pull a thematically appropriate sequel to 'ALIENS' together.  He just needs to address the movie's biggest concern -  relinquish the dubious need to retcon half the series for the sole reason of returning deceased characters played by aging actors who haven't performed these roles in decades.  Just lose that single aspect and the movie just about writes itself.

It's a great opportunity for a fresh start, have all the extant continuity remain in place and we still have a new 'ALIENS' movie.  I think it's long passed due for Denialists to let go of the 'Golden Triumvirate of Heroes who can Never Die' idea.  It's inane, juvenile and backward.   

It's time to be progressive and bring a fresh troop of Marines into the fray.  Tell a new story that's not hamstrung by rampant nostalgia.  Have it bring the core essences of the series into the 21st Century without the need to prioritise top heavy and mediocre fan service.

Ditch Ripley, Hicks and Newt and at least half the problems this movie proposal faces dissipate in an instant.

-Windebieste.


Perfect-Organism
May 18, 2016, 05:26:54 AM
Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 05:26:54 AM
Q
Winde, your opinion is an entirely valid one, though I don't share it.  I used to be very gung-ho about doing a retcon, but I am increasingly thinking about if there would be a way to bring back the "Golden Triumvirate" without destroying existing continuity.  I do love Alien 3 and even Resurrection to a somewhat lesser degree.  It should be possible, and perhaps even quite interesting to figure out a way to make this work.

Anyway, we are left at this time with the premise that it is a foregone conclusion that Hicks, Ripley, and Newt will return.  If we accept that as a fait accompli.  Then all that remains is to either discount A3 and AR, or to find a way to make this all work together somehow.  I look forward to seeing what fans come up with.


windebieste
May 18, 2016, 06:56:09 AM
Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 06:56:09 AM
Q
I personally can't see Ripley, Hicks and Newt returning without retconning those 2 movies.   As you have clearly demonstrated, it just can't happen without jumping through too many hoops that just don't line up without providing extremely complex narrative backflips.

I'll be very interested in seeing what other fans come up with; but I just can't see all three characters appearing without a retcon to movies 3 and 4...  There's just too much complexity involved to make it credible.

I don't really think that it's a foregone conclusion that R, H and N will return in Blomkamp's movie.  The entire movie is currently on hold and therefore subject to any number of changes.  Blomkamp may yet realise the problems that the resurrection of these 3 characters will create and that other narrative alternatives that are just as worthwhile and easier to deliver can be just as viable and rewarding. 

-Windebieste.


whiterabbit
May 18, 2016, 09:13:12 AM
Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 09:13:12 AM
Q
Cloning just doesn't cut it. They tried that with hick's in that video game and it fell flat on its arse. It's all just a convoluted scheme.

To break this shit down as simple as possible, the events of AlienĀ³ and A|R were nothing more than a really bad couple of dreams. Wrap it up and put on a pretty bow. That or just ignore it and go the alternative universe route. Which is a perfectly acceptable concept.


CainsSon
May 19, 2016, 02:15:55 AM
Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 02:15:55 AM
Q
Cloning just doesn't cut it. They tried that with hick's in that video game and it fell flat on its arse. It's all just a convoluted scheme.

To break this shit down as simple as possible, the events of AlienĀ³ and A|R were nothing more than a really bad couple of dreams. Wrap it up and put on a pretty bow. That or just ignore it and go the alternative universe route. Which is a perfectly acceptable concept.

The dream thing is a horrible idea. Nobody has dreams like that. Nobody dreams in 3rd person. I can see why the cloning seems off and jumping like a wild rodeo, but so long as they start the film between Aliens and Alien 3, and in doing so, add a scientific / company subplot scenario, it doesnt have to be that wild.

I think the events in Prometheus make a midquel set bw Alien and Aliens - practically a necessity. As of now, with Prometheus' input, that 57 years is basically a blank space in the timeline. Ive personalky always thought of the space bw Aliens and A3 as if there was a big ole blank space there as well. There is story to tell about the Company's knowledge, cover-ups and involvement.


Corporal Hicks
May 19, 2016, 09:01:13 AM
Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 09:01:13 AM
Q
I personally can't see Ripley, Hicks and Newt returning without retconning those 2 movies.   As you have clearly demonstrated, it just can't happen without jumping through too many hoops that just don't line up without providing extremely complex narrative backflips.

You can't. As much as I appreciate the effort you're putting into trying to make it work, P-O, it can't. It's too contrived and includes jumping through too many loops. Just to pick at one thread in your idea - Bishop clones them. Why does a military transport vehicle have cloning facilities on board?

The insistance on returning to Hicks and Ripley is a detrimental one. As Winde says -

1). Ditch Ripley, Hicks and Newt as characters. 

2). Make a new direct movie sequel to 'ALIENS' with fresh characters that depicts events parallel to 'ALIEN 3' and then there's no need for any retcon at all. 

3). Problem solved.

That's what should be being done. Obviously, this wasn't Blomkamp's original intent (that came as a result of talking to Sigourney Weaver) and I would have preferred to have seen that.


PsyKore
May 19, 2016, 10:45:13 AM
Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 10:45:13 AM
Q
I posted this on April 29 in the Topic:  "ALIEN DAY: Sigourney Weaver Talks A5 at Aliens Special Event" thread.  I would be really curious if anybody can come up with a less convoluted way than the below to make all the films work together...


On principle I agree that Alien 3 and Alien: R should just be ignored, but if they really had to ...

I think I have a solution for everything.  I have taken into account mostly what Cainsson said here, though keeping in mind what the skeptical Mr. Huda had said.  To make the story make sense, there would have to be motivation for the cloning.  I think I figured it out in a way that is neither convoluted, nor requires a retcon, and can in fact sync everything up nicely.  So here goes, in point form.

-Firstly, we have to accept the premise that Bishop is operating under conflicting directives.  Firstly, he is unable to harm a human being, but secondly, he has a specific request to secure an  return an alien to company labs.  But would Bishop consider a clone to be a human?  Do you see where I am going with this?

-So how did the eggs get on the Sulaco?  Simply, when Bishop was sent into the tunnels to get the second Dropship from the Sulaco, he went and secured 3 eggs from the egg chamber before the second dropship arrived.  At this time he knew that there were only 3 survivors.  He packed them neatly on the Dropship for return to company labs.  At no time did he intend any malice towards any of the humans though, because since he was a scientific android sent on a scientific mission, he had a lab on board the Sulaco where he could store and secure such organisms.

-Once everyone is sleeping, Bishop wakes up and gets to work.  But he is a bit of a spaz now that he is damaged.  During the weeks of sleep that everyone is under, he clones Ripley, Newt and Hicks for the purpose of incubation.  This does not conflict with his prime directive, because they are not humans.  He could just deliver the eggs whole to the company labs, but he is concerned that they may hatch and screw things up for everyone, so he figures the best bet is to have the eggs get fertilized inside the clones, so that they can be frozen for further study once he arrives back at company labs.

-He successfully impregnates CloneRipley, and while he is delivering the second egg, being a spaz, he falls over, it hatches, and just goes for Clone Hicks on its own but it cracks the glass, hurts itself, and the blood starts the electrical fire that destroys the ship.  This also explains why we have the burn marks inside the capsule from the acid. The clones are jettisoned along with Bishop to Fury 161, along with data on the cloning methods used.  Perhaps Bishop was funneling DNA directly from the originals and that is how memories got included?  I know this bit is a stretch.   So we have a dead facehugger that causes burn marks in the capsule, an impregnated Ripley Clone, Clones of Newt and Hicks, Bishop plus 1 unopened egg in the capsule, + the data.  When Bishop is reactivated in Alien 3, he sees that his Ripley clone is conscious and has all her memories and now that makes him guilty of violating his prime code.  So he asks to be deactivated.  The other egg hatches and impregnates the dog or ox.  Hicks and Newt clones never once had an y consciousness.

-In Alien Resurrection, the marines are still trying to use Bishops original data for cloning purposes.  In fact the previous point explains exactly why they went the cloning route, and how Ripley 8 was able to have memories.  They never bothered to clone Hicks and Newt because they had no Alien DNA associated with them.

-And that leaves the 3 remaining survivors from Aliens who are also jettisoned in their own EEV, but without Bishop.  That will deserve an explanation.  Then they are floating out there until Alien 5.  They are picked up eventually after they age about 30 years in stasis.  Ultimately, the theme of Alien 5 could be about them learning what happened.  Perhaps they could even end up frozen again after Alien 5 so that Ripley meets Ripley 8 eventually..

This is terrible, I'm sorry man. If this is what people are coming up with, then I think it's better to just ignore A3 and Res. Or do what Winde or any sane person would do and ditch the old characters.


Mrcreosote
May 19, 2016, 11:43:01 AM
Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 11:43:01 AM
Q
Just like Edna mode would say.... NO CLONES !!


whiterabbit
May 19, 2016, 12:49:47 PM
Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 12:49:47 PM
Q
So no clones, no dreams, no retcon, no dick... well just what the hell does that leave us with? I'll tell you what right now. In Alien:Covenant the crew begs god to resurrect their lord and savior Jesus Christ; but instead he resurrects Ellen Ripley and her squad of ultimate bad ass. Yea Newt included; this is totally a package deal. No Burke.


Corporal Hicks
May 19, 2016, 01:16:24 PM
Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 01:16:24 PM
Q
Just ignore it. That's the only thing you can really do without being cheesey or contrived. Just crack on as if Alien 3 and Resurrection never happened and leave it to the fans to argue about multiverse crap.


The Alien Predator
May 19, 2016, 05:35:02 PM
Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 05:35:02 PM
Q
Or do what I do and pretend it's not Ripley and Newt.  ;D

Every time they say RIpley or Newt, just shove your fingers in your ears and scream real loud for a second to forget the fact that it's Ripley and Newt.

Then resume enjoying the film.  :)

Don't mind me guys, the nice people in white coats will come and pick me up soon.


Corporal Hicks
May 19, 2016, 05:52:16 PM
Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 05:52:16 PM
Q
They should just re-release the original saga but do some new voice-overs to rename some of the locations and names.


Perfect-Organism
May 19, 2016, 06:07:06 PM
Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 06:07:06 PM
Q
Or do what I do and pretend it's not Ripley and Newt.  ;D

Every time they say RIpley or Newt, just shove your fingers in your ears and scream real loud for a second to forget the fact that it's Ripley and Newt.

Then resume enjoying the film.  :)

Don't mind me guys, the nice people in white coats will come and pick me up soon.

Ha ha!  It would be total poetic justice if they retconned Alien 3 so that Ripley was some sort of advanced android and Hicks and Newt were renamed Billie and Wilks.  (Tongue firmly planted in cheek)


CainsSon
May 20, 2016, 04:03:15 AM
Reply #14 on: May 20, 2016, 04:03:15 AM
Q
At the end of the day I just want to see a new Alien film. I like the idea of sequel that works somehow with A3 and AR but
I dont think there is any safe way out.
I cant tell which is worse, folding in too many clones or the retcon. I prefer they just made this take place after A:R to anything else and while I can understand why people would hate to have them cloned, lets not forget that there is also concept art for this film out there of Ripley wearing an Alien so... It doen't seem that outside the spectrum of fantasy either way, and we can't overlook the fact that the final film may be much worse than A3 no matter what they do.
Either way they try it messes something up so it just makes the most sense to me to continue after A:R.  I always wanted Blomkamp to make an ALIEN film, ever since I saw District 9. The irony being that I thought he was the perfect person for, and has the right themes in his work, to tackle a continuation of A:R. He seems to really like this idea of feeling alien-ated or different from yourself. All of his heros are dealing with being separated from their humanity. It fits right in with Ripley 8.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 04:11:13 AM by CainsSon »

 

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