What is the white stuff in Kane's Helmet?

[Xenomrph]

Any technical manual that fails at getting the tech part right is a failure and has no business being treated as a reliable source of information.

So one mistake and that's it, throw the whole book in the garbage? Nevermind the literal dozens of things it does get right (or in some cases, actually fixes).

And if they fixed the mistake in a reprint, is the book still "hot garbage"?

And again, if the movies make similar mistakes, I take it that they're not reliable sources of information either and should be disregarded wholesale?
I'm just trying to figure out how deep this double-standard goes.

[Local Trouble]

To my knowledge, they never fixed it in a reprint.  And if memory serves, it never fixed anything from the movies either.  That's just you arbitrarily deciding that Lambert was wrong and accepting the book's retcon out of sheer confirmation bias.

As for the movies, they're not technical manuals so this is hardly a double-standard.  If they entertained me, they're not failures.

[426Buddy]

Any technical manual that fails at getting the actual technical stuff right has no business being treated as a reliable source of technical information.

Even for a completely fictional sci-fi universe? Your standards in regards to the CMTM are really really high, I mean how many errors are there? 2 or 3?

I can't even think of another franchise that even has something similar to the CMTM, especially in terms of qaulity.

[Local Trouble]

Any technical manual that fails at getting the actual technical stuff right has no business being treated as a reliable source of technical information.

Even for a completely fictional sci-fi universe? Your standards in regards to the CMTM are really really high, I mean how many errors are there? 2 or 3?

Since most of the book was full of original material based on what was in the movies, I can't call them errors.  That stuff is just embellishment.  However, one of the very few things that the movie itself actually provided technical evidence for was the speed of the Sulaco and the writers of CMTM managed to f**k that up.

I also take issue with the capabilities they gave to the EEV, but that's another conversation.

[Xenomrph]

To my knowledge, they never fixed it in a reprint.

It was a hypothetical question. Are you going to answer it?

And if memory serves, it never fixed anything from the movies either.  That's just you arbitrarily deciding that Lambert was wrong and accepting the book's retcon out of sheer confirmation bias.

That phrase "confirmation bias", I'm not sure it means what you think it means.
It's hardly "arbitrary" when Lambert's number literally makes no sense, and the book fixes it with the easiest, most obvious solution possible. If anything, accepting Lambert's number just because she said it is "arbitrary", since you can't come up with a good reason why you accept it other than "she said it".

Shit, to quote you from the thread you linked:

when those numbers are demonstrably wrong, why is it "off" to correct them?

As for the movies, they're not technical manuals so this is hardly a double-standard.  If they entertained me, they're not failures.

But since the movies aren't technical manuals, they certainly shouldn't be relied upon for technical facts (like, say, the size of a planet), right?

That stuff is just embellishment.  However, one of the very few things that the movie itself actually provided technical evidence for was the speed of the Sulaco and the writers of CMTM managed to f**k that up.

Incidentally, isn't that speed calculation based on the actual real-life placement of Zeta 2 Reticuli? Because according to Prometheus, Z2R isn't located where it should be, if I remember right.
That means that declaring the CMTM "wrong" for the reason you're describing isn't exactly fair.
To be fair the CMTM could still be "wrong", just based on different math than Z2R's real life distance. Alternately, perhaps Prometheus got Z2R's placement wrong, in which case yes you're correct on the Sulaco's speed.

I can't even think of another franchise that even has something similar to the CMTM, especially in terms of qaulity.

Yeah, SM said essentially the same thing in the thread I linked.
If I were to think of comparable in-universe reference books in terms of content and detail, some of the later Star Wars "Essential Guides" come close.

[Local Trouble]

To my knowledge, they never fixed it in a reprint.

It was a hypothetical question. Are you going to answer it?

Okay: yes.  If they fixed it, I'd forgive them.

And if memory serves, it never fixed anything from the movies either.  That's just you arbitrarily deciding that Lambert was wrong and accepting the book's retcon out of sheer confirmation bias.

That phrase "confirmation bias", I'm not sure it means what you think it means.

In this case, I interpret it as you defending the CMTM because it confirms your own conclusions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

It's hardly "arbitrary" when Lambert's number literally makes no sense, and the book fixes it with the easiest, most obvious solution possible. If anything, accepting Lambert's number just because she said it is "arbitrary", since you can't come up with a good reason why you accept it other than "she said it".

Part of confirmation bias is to give disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.

Shit, to quote you from the thread you linked:

when those numbers are demonstrably wrong, why is it "off" to correct them?

Context matters.  I was talking about the SW EU that perpetuated the incorrent numbers, not the movies.  For years, many fans insisted that what the EU said trumped whatever the movies showed.

As for the movies, they're not technical manuals so this is hardly a double-standard.  If they entertained me, they're not failures.

But since the movies aren't technical manuals, they certainly shouldn't be relied upon for technical facts (like, say, the size of a planet), right?

Conceded.  However, there should be a story-related reason for the characters to be wrong.

That stuff is just embellishment.  However, one of the very few things that the movie itself actually provided technical evidence for was the speed of the Sulaco and the writers of CMTM managed to f**k that up.

Incidentally, isn't that speed calculation based on the actual real-life placement of Zeta 2 Reticuli? Because according to Prometheus, Z2R isn't located where it should be, if I remember right.
That means that declaring the CMTM "wrong" for the reason you're describing isn't exactly fair.
To be fair the CMTM could still be "wrong", just based on different math than Z2R's real life distance. Alternately, perhaps Prometheus got Z2R's placement wrong, in which case yes you're correct on the Sulaco's speed.

If you're postulating that "Zeta 2 Reticuli" isn't where the real Zeta 2 Retiucli is just to validate the CMTM's numbers, then we might as well stop the discussion now.

[SM]

Size of the Sulaco was also incorrect in the CMTM.

[Xenomrph]

Okay: yes.  If they fixed it, I'd forgive them.

Fair enough.

In this case, I interpret it as you defending the CMTM because it confirms your own conclusions.

To be more accurate, I agree with the CMTM's conclusions, and understand where it got them and why it disagrees with the movie's numbers. That's not quite the same thing.

Part of confirmation bias is to give disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.

What alternate possibility? That the planet is magic, is made of material that doesn't exist on the periodic table and only exists in neutron stars, and if it *was* made of those things, wasn't immediately considered an incredibly important scientific discovery the likes of which mankind has never seen?
I considered those, and decided "Lambert mis-spoke, or mis-read her terminal, because she's a human being capable of mistakes" was a whole lot more believable.

I was talking about the SW EU that perpetuated the incorrent numbers, not the movies.  For years, many fans insisted that what the EU said trumped whatever the movies showed.

Yes, and the converse is true here - the movie doesn't show us a 1200km planet in any capacity, so the EU is fixing a number from the movie that makes no sense. Just like you said. You're seeming to accept the movie's number just because it came from the movie, whether it makes sense or not. How is that different from what I quoted you as saying?

However, there should be a story-related reason for the characters to be wrong.

There sure is: it makes the planet believable and realistic, rather than have it be a magic impossible planet for reasons that don't serve the story. Furthermore, the characters don't know they're wrong because they're neither astrophysicists nor geologists, in the same way the movie writers (and most audience members) don't know the movie is wrong without doing some digging or having a science background.
Like I said in the other thread, if the movie went out of its way to acknowledge that the size made no sense, and therefore the planet is special/artificially constructed/whatever, then yeah I'd roll with the 1200 number because, like you just said, there'd be a story-related reason for it. But instead it's an off-the-cuff statistic, and it happens to not make sense *and* have an incredibly easy explanation.

If you're postulating that "Zeta 2 Reticuli" isn't where the real Zeta 2 Retiucli is just to validate the CMTM's numbers, then we might as well stop the discussion now.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that one could argue that your premise is flawed because you're using the real-life Z2R's location to do the math, but according to Prometheus, the Z2R that LV-426 orbits is a fictionalized version that isn't located where the real life one is, and that changes your math.

The CMTM could be (and is) still wrong, I'm just commenting on your argument.
Really if anything I'd say Prometheus just goofed up where Z2R is located (I think it says it's 37 light years away, when it's actually 39 or whatever).

Size of the Sulaco was also incorrect in the CMTM.

While we're on the topic I guess, can you think of anything else it got wrong (other than the Thedus/Thetis thing)?

[Local Trouble]

What alternate possibility? That the planet is magic, is made of material that doesn't exist on the periodic table and only exists in neutron stars, and if it *was* made of those things, wasn't immediately considered an incredibly important scientific discovery the likes of which mankind has never seen?

You mean like FTL space travel and the existence of extraterrestrial life?  Sure, why not? 

"This thing is made of a mineral not found on the periodic table" is practically a sci-fi trope now.  And, once again, it would explain the company's interest in extrasolar mining.

[Xenomrph]

You mean like FTL space travel and the existence of extraterrestrial life?

The difference being that those things serve the plot, while the size of the planet does not. That was one of your standards, wasn't it?

And, once again, it would explain the company's interest in extrasolar mining.

Nevermind that, as pointed out in the other thread, they wouldn't be able to mine it, and it would be highly radioactive and molecularly unstable, with a half-life in the microseconds.

Are you going to give a better reason for accepting Lambert's nonsense number other than "she said it" (especially when the movies visually contradict it)?

I'll go ahead and re-quote the other important parts you skipped over:

I was talking about the SW EU that perpetuated the incorrent numbers, not the movies.  For years, many fans insisted that what the EU said trumped whatever the movies showed.

Yes, and the converse is true here - the movie doesn't show us a 1200km planet in any capacity, so the EU is fixing a number from the movie that makes no sense. Just like you said. You're seeming to accept the movie's number just because it came from the movie, whether it makes sense or not. How is that different from what I quoted you as saying?

However, there should be a story-related reason for the characters to be wrong.

There sure is: it makes the planet believable and realistic, rather than have it be a magic impossible planet for reasons that don't serve the story. Furthermore, the characters don't know they're wrong because they're neither astrophysicists nor geologists, in the same way the movie writers (and most audience members) don't know the movie is wrong without doing some digging or having a science background.
Like I said in the other thread, if the movie went out of its way to acknowledge that the size made no sense, and therefore the planet is special/artificially constructed/whatever, then yeah I'd roll with the 1200 number because, like you just said, there'd be a story-related reason for it. But instead it's an off-the-cuff statistic, and it happens to not make sense *and* have an incredibly easy explanation.

Again I'll use your quote:

when those numbers are demonstrably wrong, why is it "off" to correct them?

The line of dialogue in the movie is demonstrably wrong. Or should there be a "*unless the number is in a movie, then all bets are off" double-standard tagged onto the end of your quote?

Like you can believe whatever number you'd like to believe, it's no skin off my nose. I'm just trying to understand why. I mean you might have a great reason that gets me to say "oh hey, I didn't think about it like that, I like your reasoning and am reconsidering my position", but I just haven't seen it yet.

[Local Trouble]

You mean like FTL space travel and the existence of extraterrestrial life?

The difference being that those things serve the plot, while the size of the planet does not. That was one of your standards, wasn't it?

No.

And, once again, it would explain the company's interest in extrasolar mining.

Nevermind that, as pointed out in the other thread, they wouldn't be able to mine it, and it would be highly radioactive and molecularly unstable, with a half-life in the microseconds.

Says you. If the writers invented a mineral that could be mined and was stable, what choice would you have but to suspend disbelief?  Isn't that what you're already doing when you accept FTL space travel as a given?

Are you going to give a better reason for accepting Lambert's nonsense number other than "she said it" (especially when the movies visually contradict it)?

Nope.

I'll go ahead and re-quote the other important parts you skipped over

Good, because I'm not going to quote it again.

I don't have a double-standard.  The movie always trumps the EU.  The CMTM is EU.  You keep trying to use my words against me as if I'm contradicting myself, but I never said that EU numbers can "fix" the movie numbers.

[SM]

What alternate possibility? That the planet is magic, is made of material that doesn't exist on the periodic table and only exists in neutron stars, and if it *was* made of those things, wasn't immediately considered an incredibly important scientific discovery the likes of which mankind has never seen?

You mean like FTL space travel and the existence of extraterrestrial life?  Sure, why not? 

"This thing is made of a mineral not found on the periodic table" is practically a sci-fi trope now.  And, once again, it would explain the company's interest in extrasolar mining.

Predators mined LV-426 for metal for their spear tips.

[Local Trouble]

What alternate possibility? That the planet is magic, is made of material that doesn't exist on the periodic table and only exists in neutron stars, and if it *was* made of those things, wasn't immediately considered an incredibly important scientific discovery the likes of which mankind has never seen?

You mean like FTL space travel and the existence of extraterrestrial life?  Sure, why not? 

"This thing is made of a mineral not found on the periodic table" is practically a sci-fi trope now.  And, once again, it would explain the company's interest in extrasolar mining.

Predators mined LV-426 for metal for their spear tips.

Is that canon?

[Xenomrph]

If the writers invented a mineral that could be mined and was stable, what choice would you have but to suspend disbelief?

If the writers did that, sure. But they didn't. We get no indication that anyone recognizes how mind-blowingly remarkable that would be, or any visual evidence that the planet actually is that small.

I don't have a double-standard.  The movie always trumps the EU. 

That tells me everything I need to know. Fair enough, you're more than welcome to your opinion, thanks.

[Local Trouble]

I don't have a double-standard.  The movie always trumps the EU. 

That tells me everything I need to know. Fair enough, you're more than welcome to your opinion, thanks.

You didn't know that already?  In that thread I linked to, I also said this:

There are people (especially within Star Wars fandom) who would insist that the EU trumps what can be gleaned from the films.

Did you think I was referring to myself?