Arnold Schwarzenegger Has Not Been Contacted About Predator 4

Started by Corporal Hicks, Jun 30, 2015, 12:11:44 PM

Author
Arnold Schwarzenegger Has Not Been Contacted About Predator 4 (Read 39,661 times)

Xenomorphine

Doesn't matter. That's what the original Predators were meant to be seeing (in the same way as the one from 'Requiem' is old and busted).

And even if it did have picture-perfect facial recognition (which it doesn't), that still only helps if the Predator is constantly looking at the guy. :) Even we humans, in our professional intelligence services, need to devote entire teams of several people - at any one simultaneous time - to tracking someone. The thing is wandering around the entire city and periodically going back to base.

Harrigan not only isn't being tracked like that, but he's done nothing to prove himself worthy of it. Ergo, it's bad writing.

Engineer

Just because they don't explicitly show us how the predator is tracking him doesn't mean it can't/didn't. I don't see how it's bad writing; they just left something to the imagination...

pred169



Quote from: Engineer on Jul 06, 2015, 08:20:51 PM
Just because they don't explicitly show us how the predator is tracking him doesn't mean it can't/didn't. I don't see how it's bad writing; they just left something to the imagination...

Yeah its kinda like the predators diet and feeding habits. We never see it and it only gets discussed once in the 2nd film. Other than that it was left out of scripting. Doesn't mean it wasn't feeding throughout both films. Writers were just focused on other aspects of the film. Them eating just wasn't important to the script.

Engineer

PS. The reason Harrigan was more worthy than the criminals to the predator, in my opinion, is because he not only displayed a violent streak but also because he showed a sense of honor and control that the criminals didn't. For example, he didn't just run in guns blazing and shooting anything that moved; he risked his neck to save fellow officers, and avoided shooting innocent bystanders who were in the area. On the other hand, maybe the predator DID target more worthy prey on the criminal side, hence its showdown with King willie... Or maybe that was the predator's not-so-subtle way of sending harrigan a message considering harrigan was there seconds before King willie bit the dust...


Xenomorphine

Quote from: Engineer on Jul 06, 2015, 08:20:51 PM
Just because they don't explicitly show us how the predator is tracking him doesn't mean it can't/didn't. I don't see how it's bad writing; they just left something to the imagination...

Partly because it runs counter to the far more logical precedent set by the first film. Why was Harrigan so easy to repeatedly find when Dutch (who did a lot more to prove worthy of 'prize trophy' status) wasn't?

Dutch turned the creature's advanced technology against it. That's part of why the story felt quite clever in places. If we're saying Predators can do as they please, 'just because', then they really do start seeming more like magical beings, than something with realistic limitations, IMO.

So, as I say, bad writing/plot-hole. :) That's why I prefer to excuse it by thinking of the run-ins as coincidental.

QuotePS. The reason Harrigan was more worthy than the criminals to the predator, in my opinion, is because he not only displayed a violent streak but also because he showed a sense of honor and control that the criminals didn't. For example, he didn't just run in guns blazing and shooting anything that moved; he risked his neck to save fellow officers, and avoided shooting innocent bystanders who were in the area. On the other hand, maybe the predator DID target more worthy prey on the criminal side, hence its showdown with King willie... Or maybe that was the predator's not-so-subtle way of sending harrigan a message considering harrigan was there seconds before King willie bit the dust...

There weren't any innocents standing in the cross-fire, from what I remember (aside from journalists who were standing way back). From the Predator's POV, all Harrigan did was to use a battering ram approach and out-flank a small group of them - something it seemed to find of only minor interest, considering how it immediately went off to rank up its own body-count. :)

Ramming/out-flanking a small number of opponents doesn't make him worthy of being stalked for days on end. That's less than what the members of Dutch's team did - and the original film's creature stealth-killed them as soon as it could.

KW was another kill I regard as opportunistic: A guy standing around with a big sword. Predators had no way to know of his underworld criminal connections or that he was running a drugs empire.

Engineer

Who ever said the predators can do as the please 'just because'? The fact that harrigan was unable to hide himself from the predator like Dutch just made it much more believable that he could have been tracked for so long. They have obvious limitations, but the films never show us all of the limitations or technological 'wizardry' they have at their disposal; they leave some to the imagination which was far more common in movies in the 80s and 90s as opposed to today.

And there were innocent bystanders nearby. Not exactly in the crossfire, but harrigan and his team barged in on them when searching the building that the criminals retreated to. We never see the criminals shoot any innocent people nearby, but my own interpretation (and that's what this is, MY interpretation, not a solid argument) is that they did at some point while the predator was watching. Plus, we have no idea how long the predator was watching harrigan before it started racking up its own body count... We're assuming harrigan got its attention in the opening shoot out, because that's where the movie starts us at... But Keyes did mention that the predator had been there and kept returning to the meat factory on a regular cycle for a while if I remember correctly...

HuDaFuK

I honestly can't see why anyone would argue the Predator repeatedly happening upon Harrigan in the second film is blind coincidence rather than the Predator simply having some way of following him around.

That's like arguing planes fly using magic as opposed to physics. It's counter-intuitive.

Engineer

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 06, 2015, 08:56:56 PM
I honestly can't see why anyone would argue the Predator repeatedly happening upon Harrigan in the second film is blind coincidence rather than the Predator simply having some way of following him around.

That's like arguing planes fly using magic as opposed to physics. It's counter-intuitive.
To a caveman, it would be magical; that was the point behind posting that Arthur c. Clark quote... :-)

But you're right; I don't see it as coincidental either.

And YES, the first predator was indeed far more clever than any other predator film; I definitely agree with you there xenomorphine! :-)

Xenomorphine

Xenomorphine

#83
Quote from: Engineer on Jul 06, 2015, 08:53:29 PMWho ever said the predators can do as the please 'just because'?

They want to locate and track a target they have no way of doing so, yet supposedly can do.

That's the same logic.

If Harrigan was somehow being tracked by unknown senses in the mask, then why was it impossible to apply those same abilities to Dutch? That's where all this falls down. If you presume these other abilities exist, then you have to come up with a reason they weren't being employed against Dutch. The fact they weren't, heavily suggests that thermal is their primary and only means to typically locate/track a human target.

QuoteThe fact that harrigan was unable to hide himself from the predator like Dutch just made it much more believable that he could have been tracked for so long.

Incorrect. He was hiding a lot - he just had no idea he needed to. The only way the Predator would have known always where he and his friends were, would be if it had a constant lock - simultaneously - in all three of them. Use thermal on the entire city of LA and tell me how it kept relocating them. Then tell me how it supposedly knew Jerry/Leona were on a specific carriage on a specific speeding train. How was it doing this?

We can even keep it simple and look just at Harrigan's car ride to meet KW. :) How did the Predator know he's the one who got out the smokey vehicle, as opposed to the other heavily-built humanoid shapes? It wasn't exactly seeing through the roof.

QuoteThey have obvious limitations, but the films never show us all of the limitations or technological 'wizardry' they have at their disposal; they leave some to the imagination which was far more common in movies in the 80s and 90s as opposed to today.

The first film showed their limitations. Limitations which would have prevented them knowing where Harrigan was in a city of millions, not to mention his friends, too. That's all the second film had to do - keep in line with those very same limitations.

QuoteAnd there were innocent bystanders nearby. Not exactly in the crossfire, but harrigan and his team barged in on them when searching the building that the criminals retreated to.

If they were inside the building, it wouldn't have known. At that point, it wasn't even observing. It was going to get its own kills.

QuoteWe never see the criminals shoot any innocent people nearby, but my own interpretation (and that's what this is, MY interpretation, not a solid argument) is that they did at some point while the predator was watching. Plus, we have no idea how long the predator was watching harrigan before it started racking up its own body count... We're assuming harrigan got its attention in the opening shoot out, because that's where the movie starts us at... But Keyes did mention that the predator had been there and kept returning to the meat factory on a regular cycle for a while if I remember correctly...

So, like I said, from what we know the Predator saw of the guy, he didn't really do anything more deserving of a prolonged stalk, than any of the guys in the first film. :)

In fact, as it was meant to have been a more reckless creature, that should have singled him out as a kill earlier on, not much later.

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 06, 2015, 08:56:56 PM
I honestly can't see why anyone would argue the Predator repeatedly happening upon Harrigan in the second film is blind coincidence rather than the Predator simply having some way of following him around.

That's like arguing planes fly using magic as opposed to physics. It's counter-intuitive.

It gets around the plot-hole of not being able to locate him in a city of millions. Especially when the creature is primarily there to look for prey to hunt and kill.

The writers intended for us to realise he was being tracked. The creature's severe limitations, however, mean it had no realistic way to do this.

Like I said, it's the same situation as the magical teleporting egg in 'Alien 3': The writers didn't expect the audience to question it or apply logic, but once you do, it falls down. The egg's very existence doesn't make sense. At that point it becomes perfectly valid to offer up possible alternatives - even though the writers of the film didn't intend us to think of any.

Engineer

Ok, so the predator in the second film was better equipped than the predator in the first film... Or perhaps just equipped differently. Hunters don't always go in to the hunt with the same gear. And this is a trend which was started by the second film and carried through to all other films featuring a predator... The first predator didn't have a smart-disk, or dual shoulder cannons. Perhaps the predator in the second film equipped itself with an urban tracking device of some sort, and we weren't explicitly shown this device (I.e., a Harrigan  pheromone tracker or something)... Just conjecture, I know... But you can't rule it out either, since they never explicitly say it didn't have something. And no, I'm not talking about 'magic,' I'm talking about a technology that we may not (yet) understand which is very common in sci fi movies anyway.

I'm still not convinced that the thermal vision was unsuitable for identifying individuals either, even in a city with millions of other potential targets. Or that it was unable to identify Jerry/Leona on a speeding train. It had the capability of using a rock's trajectory to find Dutch after he threw it as a distraction, so it obviously has computational power in that helmet for tracking a moving target or tracing a moving target's trajectory back to its point of origin; I don't think locking on to a train is a huge leap in logic, especially if it watched and knew jerry/Leona had boarded the train already. Nor do I think it's a huge leap in logic that the helmet couldn't assist in pointing out a target it marked for tracking by using biometrics or some other light spectrum aside from thermal IF it truly was unable to tell the individuals apart for itself; again it can't be ruled out because they don't explicitly say it can't even though they never explicitly show it can either.

As for how it knew harrigan was the guy who stepped out of the car, maybe it was his hair cut that gave him away there (lol, jk). Seriously, though, it could have been anything, possibly voice recognition as he spoke to the driver after exiting the vehicle.

Backtracking a little bit, let's go back to your Spock quote:

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

I haven't see any definitive evidence yet to suggest that it was impossible for the predator to track harrigan. So we still have two possibilities:

1) it was coincidence.

2) it was tracking him by some means: visual, technological or otherwise.

Of these two possibilities, coincidence is much less probable. So I remain convinced it was tracking him by some method which we are most likely unaware of since it wasn't explicitly shown in the movie.... But it was tracking him, nonetheless, which was strongly eluded to (or should I say "said outright"):

Leona: "first Danny, then King willie, and you were right there. He's playing with you mike. You gotta be careful."

Soooo, using the same logic you used in regards to the predator vision, if the director/writers included this dialog they must have meant for us to take this quote 'literally' and wanted us to believe harrigan was being followed/tracked by the predator. How was it tracking him? They must have intended for us to use our imaginations a little bit... :-)

OR, you can assume both predators were equipped exactly the same; the equipment is only as good as it's user. Perhaps that first predator didn't use, or think to use, it's tracking methods because it didn't think it was necessary. It seemed genuinely surprised to learn of Dutch's clever disguise. I wouldn't find that explanation hard to believe either.

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#85
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jul 06, 2015, 05:48:12 PM
Doesn't matter. That's what the original Predators were meant to be seeing (in the same way as the one from 'Requiem' is old and busted).

And even if it did have picture-perfect facial recognition (which it doesn't), that still only helps if the Predator is constantly looking at the guy. :) Even we humans, in our professional intelligence services, need to devote entire teams of several people - at any one simultaneous time - to tracking someone. The thing is wandering around the entire city and periodically going back to base.

Who says it's based on facial recognition? As I said earlier, there are more senses than that. And just because those senses/tracking methods aren't explicitly shown in the other films doesn't mean it can't happen. We don't see them using holograms in the first films but we know they have them. They have a wrist computer full of output we can't read.

Predators shows they are interested in specific people - and whilst it's possible they were quick grabs, Edwin is a serial killer who is less blatant and would show no immediate signs of interest so I would have assumed he was tracked prior to being snatched.

It really isn't hard to believe they are capable of differentiating people and taking an interest in specific ones.

blood.

Predators clearly have navpoints on their priority targets on their hud in a spectrum of light we can't see.

Xenomorphine

Xenomorphine

#87
Rather than do a point-by-point thing, I'm just going to do an unnecessarily lengthy illustrated guide. :)

Spoiler
COULD THEY HAVE OTHER MYSTERY SENSES?

Yes, it's possible. On the other hand, there's zero indication of this. We see the new weapons and vision-modes being employed (vision-modes it never uses when it's looking at Harrigan, which means they consider themal of more use in observing him). Yes, it could be doing all kinds of other unexplained hand-waved stuff, but without any indications, we might as well say it's using magic. Until we're shown Predators have a way to accomplish a task, then we can't say they must do it.

And, again, we see what a Predator does with Dutch. That's one guy in an entire jungle. Being in a city like LA vastly multiplies the problems for the Predator, not its prey.

TRAJECTORY AND TRAINS:

Tracking trajectory won't help with the example of the train. It isn't about knowing a vehicle's heading. It's about knowing where the targets within it are. Was an invisible Predator literally going through the ticket gates and hanging around in a massive crowd of people? Not bothering to attack them because it... Liked trains? What was stopping it? Bystanders doesn't count, as it obviously didn't care about them when it ripped the carriage open. Why didn't anyone else notice a big shimmering creature on the underground platform? :)

We already saw what their preferred vision mode was (and the one it was using when it encountered Jerry/Leona) when looking at vehicles - and it's terrible at trying to look through the surface metal. In fact, metal is great at radiating all that sweltering LA heat, so...

PRIORITY TARGETS:

So, let's say Harrigan and his friends were all considered priority targets. Targets the mask can somehow locate and track at extreme range. If that's the case, then why are there no visual indications of this? The mask clearly isn't doing its job properly! :) Shouldn't they be getting highlighted in some way? Shouldn't there be a special marker placed over them, so that the user knows the primary targets have been found?

Nothing of the sort occurs. Nothing, at all. The mask isn't assigning any additional processing power to locating or tracking them. This shouldn't just be applying to Harrigan, but Jerry/Leona/Danny - and it doesn't happen at any time the Predator encounters them. Not once. They're treated just like all the other dozens of people it's also going after for daring to walk around armed.

Harrigan's told it's toying with him? Yes, because that would be a valid assumption if the killer was human. If the killer was doing things like reading newspaper clippings and stuff like that, like human serial killers do. It's not.

So, for the sake of argument, let's go into the Predator's world, itself... Let's look at those same scenes in the film from the perspective of the Predator.

Here's what the Predator sees...

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0004.jpg

This is the problem it will encounter every single time it wants to find Harrigan. Every time it spends a while finding a valid, armed target, it has to spend away from not only Harrigan, but his associates (all of whom will frequently split up). Every time it tracks down a target it does want to kill and spends a while arranging the best approach, before deciding to head back Harrigan's way. Every time it goes to the slaughterhouse to eat and decides it needs to go back to Harrigan. Every time it goes back to base to spend ages cleaning its new trophies, going to the toilet or sleeping, before deciding it wants to gut one of Harrigan's friends.

"Hey, guys, just going out to find that dude I want to-"

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0005.jpg

"Shit! Where is he?! Clack-clack-clack-clack-clack... Oh, I know! I might have seen him go in that big, massive building. I'll stake it out, dude. I'll will totally stake it-"

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0006.jpg

"F**king windows! Why can't I see through them?! F**k this shit, I'm finding someone I can actually see..."

And this is why any attempt for the Predators to find Harrigan, Jerry, Leona or Danny, will hit a brick wall. There are miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and... Of these. Of big, massive buildings which might as well have 'ANTI-PREDATOR BUNKER' written on the side. :)

And it could be travelling anywhere over the entire city. Look at those pictures. See how the problem gets worse, the further away it's looking? That's because heat disperses over distance and, especially in high temperatures (like those of the film), one heat source will bleed into another and get merged into the surrounding heated air.

Even if Harrigan were standing out on the balcony of one of those buildings, the Predator would still have a damned hard time trying to see his location - and this is assuming it both has a clear line-of-sight and happened to be looking in exactly the same direction.

Being a Predator is hard, you guys... That's why they're always grumpy.

But Harrigan and the rest could easily be picked out from above, right?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0007.jpg

In a jungle, yeah. In LA, where they're surrounded by lots of similar humanoid shapes? The Predator doesn't just have to find a humanoid target, like in the first film. It has to figure out which ones they happen to be. That vision-mode is clearly great for finding human targets. We can see them very easily. But it's also clearly rubbish at figuring out who is who.

And here comes Harrigan! Here comes that number one awesome trophy dude! He'll obviously stand out!

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0101.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0107.jpg

Well, kind of... Not really.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0146.jpg

Here he is by a dead gang-member. The only real differences are some different splodges of colour. There isn't anything which makes him look different. And what's he even done, from the Predator's perspective, which makes him any different to, say, Hawkins and the rest? If you were a Predator and had just seen this, would you honestly feel there's a point in prolonging the hunt over several days when you could just kill him dead? How about if you're a reckless Predator who's impulsive, like this one is meant to be? Would that make you more patient or less so?

OK, so, how about if the Predator has a fair chance and is looking at his face? Surely that makes a difference? Maybe we're taking away some kind of key visual advantage.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0224.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0229.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0232.jpg

Apparently not.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0235.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0286.jpg

And standing him alongside another human figure apparently makes it even worse, not better. The Predator is going to - repeatedly - track him down through the city, based on this? Then it's going to be hunting just about anybody with a gun... Maybe that's why it took so long! It couldn't figure out who Harrigan actually was and had been attributing just about any violent gesture it saw to the one guy. :)

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0564.jpg

But when he wears a hat! Oh, when he wears a hat, it is totally on!

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0664.jpg

Just a shame it isn't permanently on his head... :(

Jerry, though? Harrigan's friends must be more obvious, right?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0733.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0737.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0744.jpg

"I don't want to sound racist, but you humans all look the same... :("

Which brings up an interesting question. Just how close does it have to get before some vaguely recognisable facial details are present?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0747.jpg

Kicking-in-the-balls close, it would seem.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0768.jpg

Then again...

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0287.jpg

And vehicles are really shitty if you want to find out the identity of someone specific on the inside. This is the problem you'd have if you somehow knew your targets had boarded a train or, say, just a car.

How about the alternative vision-modes we know they have?

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0660.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0948.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0949.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0950.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray0967.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1008.jpg

And that is the reason they prefer thermal. :)

As we can see, they're all great if being used to track targets, in general. But what they all lack is the fine visual definition for identifying specific individuals.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1042.jpg

And Harrigan still isn't being identified as a priority by the mask. The only reason the Predator seems to perk up, is because it recognises his voice - and that's all its own doing. The mask is not highlighting him as an important target, Terminator-style.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1078.jpg
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1091.jpg

And he's still not showing any kind of detail necessary for facial recognition.

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1116.jpg

And when the Predator isn't using its mask, even right up close, the guy still looks like a generic trace of heat. The Predator can see he's a target, alive and humanoid. Visually-speaking, that's all.

Being a Predator is hard, you guys... Really, really hard.
[close]

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#88
I get it - the film doesn't show us how it tracks. And I get that it's a problem for you because of how unspecific the infra-red vision is shown to be.

But it still doesn't mean that you can't reasonably think that it's possibly that the Predator has some other method of tracking specific targets (some form of tagging like we do with IR or radio for example). The films clearly show us that they can track somehow. And there's a lot of plausible ways for them to do that that aren't limited to a visual facial recognition, especially considering that the Predators are supposed to be more advanced than us. It's really easy to believe. Maybe they'll be nice enough to show us that some day.

HuDaFuK

Seriously, the insistence that it has to be (astronomically unlikely) coincidence, rather than simply being down to something we aren't shown and/or don't understand, just doesn't fly at all.

That's by far the less sensible supposition.

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