The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic by Tim Lebbon

Started by Perfect-Organism, Nov 18, 2014, 10:44:01 PM

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The Rage War: A three part Alien / Predator epic by Tim Lebbon (Read 234,051 times)

RakaiThwei

RakaiThwei

#255
Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Apr 02, 2015, 01:11:29 AM
However, I am with Rakai'Thwei on Predators being a natural evolution.

This is something which I would like to be more or less untouched. I am a firm believer that the Predators are something of a result of natural evolution. Just leave them alone. I don't need to know if they are a creation of the Engineers and I hope that is something which is never answered. I'd like to think that the Predators are actually their own thing.

I mean if that is something answered and they are made out to be creations of the Engineers, I just feel it takes something unique away from them. Some life is artificially made, some life can be natural. I'd prefer if Predators are natural occurring creatures, or like to think that and would really not like to see that touched.

Sure, Predator Homeworld suggested the idea that Predators were descended from an ancestral race which was displaced onto another world to reach their evolutionary apex but that was just that, an idea, a theory. Nothing concrete. Leave some ambiguity.

Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Apr 02, 2015, 01:11:29 AM
I hope the new novel explores Predator interactions with other aliens.

I don't mind it if Predators have interacted with other aliens. I would've thought that Predator 2, AVP-R and the old EU material suggested that, even if lightly touched upon. We don't know if the creatures which were shown in the trophy cases were sentient, and I don't think we need to know that. They're a Hunter/Warrior race that are all about remaining hidden from their prey. At best, Predators are going to have an antagonistic and hidden presence in regards to other alien races.

I get the feeling that some people want to go a Star Wars/Star Trek route with the Predators as far as interacting with other alien races. Aside from a Hunter-Prey relationship, do we really need to know if Predators establish diplomatic relationships with other races, or established wars with other races? The latter... I'm open to.. DEPENDING on the execution.

Quote from: Guan Thwei 1992 on Apr 02, 2015, 01:11:29 AM
If in the end, Predators turn out to be a creation of the Space Jockeys, I wouldn't really be too bothered by it.

I'm not too keen on this idea. My problem with Fire and Stone's aspect was that it was Prometheus centric and now Prometheus is treading on Predator territory, which is something where I feel... doesn't belong. Prometheus has no place in Predator, and Predator has no place in Prometheus. Completely different movies, one is a very sophisticated movie which is supposed to have deep metaphorical philosophical bull and the other was an 80's action B-movie flick (I'm a fan of Predator but damn it, I ain't gonna pretend that it's something it isn't-- and that's not counting the old EU).

I get the feeling that the Engineers are being presented as these Galactic Overlords that rule over all. And I don't really like that direction and execution. If you ask me, this direction and execution sort of dethroned the Alien as the main antagonist and more or less reduced them to something second flute-- made them more or less a minion archetype. Hey, if people complained about ALIENS turning the creature into a cannon fodder space bug, then some folks are gonna complain how Prometheus made them out to be a cannon fodder space bug which was a by-product f**k up.

I'd hate to see the Predators be reduced to third flute and made them out to be just creations of an over-hyped, over glorified, new Galactic Overlord race.

Perfect-Organism

My opinions on Predators are very loose.  I'm not a big fan of Predators and I only kind of got into them through the original AVP series.  I respect that there are hard-core Predator fans, and I would not want their world over-turned too much.  Personally, I agree that Predators should steer clear of Engineers.  Those worlds don't need to intersect.  It was silly to see that in comics and would be 10 times sillier on the big screen.

I'm just sort of postulating about Predators and their gender.  I'm not really interested in them enough to get too deep into their motivations, biology, sociology and what not.  The idea that a whole race is all about hunting and war seems a bit ridiculous to me, but I can see that it makes no sense to go beyond that really.  Though I guess one could get a chortle out of thinking that somewhere out there in the Predator universe, there must be Predators sitting around somewhere crunching taxes for clients, and Predator cab drivers, and Predator doctors, and Predator poets, musicians, artists, etc.  You get the point.  It's the answer to a question nobody is asking...

P.S. Predator plumbers lol!

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#257
I quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice. To actually create a lifeform for the intention of using as a weapon. I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

But again - I'm not sure I like the idea of an entire Engineer created galaxy as that dilutes the possible stories unless we go extra-galactic.

HuDaFuK

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 08:47:34 AMI quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice. To actually create a lifeform for the intention of using as a weapon. I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

But again - I'm not sure I like the idea of an entire Engineer created universe as that dilutes the possible stories unless we go extra-galactic.

We park our cars in the same garage.

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#259
Oopps. Mean - "But again - I'm not sure I like the idea of an entire Engineer created galaxy as that dilutes the possible stories unless we go extra-galactic."


Oh and Tim Lebbon replied to my tweet -

Quote@timlebbon Tim! What are odds of the dog-aliens from Out of the Shadows making a return in Rage War? - Mar 30

@_CorporalHicks The odds are fair...

https://twitter.com/timlebbon/status/583567660060905472

The Alien Predator

Great post, Hicks.

And that would be ironic if Predators were made by Engineers yet go and hunt them as it reminds us of the "creators being destroyed by their creation" trope.

Spoiler
Like how the humans in Assassin's Creed contributed to the downfall of their own creators in the past.
[close]


I see the Engineers as extremely powerful and advanced, but they would have a species wide ego. They would think they own everything yet they don't really as many of their creations contribute to their own downfall.

And Tim's reply sounds really hopeful. It would be interesting if the Dog-Aliens appear... what type of role do you think they would play, Corporal?

Corporal Hicks

I'm wondering if they're the ones controlling the Aliens. I've replied to ask.


HuDaFuK

It would fit with their apparently nurturing Aliens on their ship in the first couple of novels.

The Alien Predator

That would make some sense, Corporal.

The Out of the Shadows and Sea of Sorrows novels show that they tried collecting eggs and breeding aliens, There's some juxtaposition going on there. So it won't be surprised if the new wave of aliens is the folly of their mad science. People like Decker might first point fingers at Weyland-Yutani due to them acquiring a live drone, and a queen Facehugger as well as a normal one if I remember correctly, with the queen one implied to contain two embryos.

I first originally thought that Predator: Incursion would be about Predators discovering Oomans having acquired their favoured prey and they arrive for a glorious hunt. However, this new plot has really piqued my interest.

Speaking of these other aliens and Predators, I wonder how "much" the other races know about the Predators. Humanity (at least the government and higher ups) tend to know quite a bit about the Preds, Elden seemed to imply that he had no clue what the Predators even were in their first encounter and I kinda liked this idea that Engineers and Predators would know very little about eachother. But alas, that was Elden... we don't know what the REAL Engineer was saying.

And speaking of knowledge about Predators, do you guys think that by the late 25th to early 26th centuries, Xenomorphs and Predators are public knowledge? I just remembered that Judge Dredd crossover where the Predator's hunt is publicly described on Mega City One's News channel. It would be neat to explore human thoughts on the Predators and knowing Tim, it is high he would explore such details. I hope to see Predator opinions on humans as well especially if there are possible (if fragile) alliances to overcome a common foe. As well as Pred interactions with Arcturians and Dog-Aliens if they show up.

Corporal Hicks

Tim just responded:

Quote@_CorporalHicks Indirectly...  I sorta wish so much wasn't given away in the write-up on Amazon.

The Alien Predator


Ultramorph

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 02:53:35 PM
Tim just responded:

Quote@_CorporalHicks Indirectly...  I sorta wish so much wasn't given away in the write-up on Amazon.

! My plot guess:

Spoiler
The dog aliens are controlling the xenos, and WY steps up with their own weapoized aliens to try and fight them, alongside the Predators and Arcturians.
[close]

Can't wait!

Perfect-Organism

Hmm, this would only really interest me if it was canon with the upcoming Alien 5 and Prometheus 2.  But the aforementioned already have ruled out the AVP films so I can't see them reinstating the Predators back into the Alien universe which tells me that this may be in conflict with the new films which tells me it may not be canon.  Otherwise, we will have multiple AVP Galaxies.  I can understand separate canons for cross-overs like AVP, but why have multiple AVP canons?  Man, I dunno...

RakaiThwei

I've been wanting to address some points as last night I couldn't sleep and read them more on my phone. So if I seem irritable, please understand but I've been wanting to address some things which were mentioned.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
I quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice.

I don't mind the Engineers creating many life forms, but I don't think they should be responsible for creating ALL life. This also includes the Predators, and I will touch up on that later. But as I said, I don't mind the Engineers creating some life in the universe. I also don't mind them being so advanced they posses power other races don't.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

I don't mind the Engineers creating the Xenomorph. It's something we've long speculated for over twenty years, so that's nothing really new. What I don't like is how it's being handled. The Aliens are completely second flute now, and Fire and Stone sort of shows that-- especially how one Engineer made HILLS of Xenomorph corpses, with his bare hands. I'm not as much as a fan of Alien as I am with Predator, but when the original antagonist of the Alien franchise is made second flute.. Well.. it dethrones the Aliens. It's all about execution and I don't like the way they're executing things.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

This. This is something which I've been trying to say and you've addressed it on both sides. I am all about variety, let there be variety. Life can happen naturally and artificially. The universe is a big place so why CAN'T life happen without the Engineers? Surely they haven't covered the entire universe and charted it. I don't mind if the Engineers created some life but I would mind it if they created ALL life, especially with the Predators.

For them to really create all life in the universe would further make them and cement them as Galactic Overlords and that's just something I would find very boring and an excuse to put the Engineers on a higher pedestal. Leave some ambiguity. Keep some mystery. I don't want to find out that life in the Alien-Predator universe wouldn't have occurred without the Engineers just because they bored and decide to make new toys.

The Engineers are very powerful as it is, but the Alien-Predator universe isn't Star Wars/Star Trek and doesn't need Galactic Overlords.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 02, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

What's wrong with wanting Predators to remain special and unique? I mean I do understand what you are trying to say in that there is a sense of irony in that the Engineer's creations are trying to kill their own creators but going back to your own doubts, I want to keep variety. Predators should be a part of that variety along with a few other species out there. I mean isn't it enough that Humans and Xenomorphs are results of Engineers being bored and playing with their toys?

As I said, if all life in the Alien-Predator universe was created by the Engineers who more or less are creations themselves by some higher power as hinted by Ridley Scott... then life couldn't, wouldn't have happened on it's own and I just find that to be very, very boring. Nothing would be unique, the Engineers would be overlords, Aliens would be second flute and reduced to genetic screw ups, and Predators would be no different from Humans, Xenomorphs and every other life form out there.

Engineers can be responsible for life, just not ALL life. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Apr 02, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
Hmm, this would only really interest me if it was canon with the upcoming Alien 5 and Prometheus 2.  But the aforementioned already have ruled out the AVP films so I can't see them reinstating the Predators back into the Alien universe which tells me that this may be in conflict with the new films which tells me it may not be canon.  Otherwise, we will have multiple AVP Galaxies.  I can understand separate canons for cross-overs like AVP, but why have multiple AVP canons?  Man, I dunno...

Assuming if Blomkamp's Alien movie is ignoring Alien 3 and Resurrection, but not retconning them then this may hint that there maybe an Alien-Predator multiverse. I've got an entire thread about that, though most of it it's thirty pages of debating between myself and Xenomrph, but it discusses on whether or not there is or should be an Alien-Predator multiverse. I would be absolutely thrilled if Blomkamp's movie is an alternate timeline/universe.. That's all I have looking forward to this movie, because it'd establish we have a multiverse.

I am all for multiple AvP canons. Everything would have a place. Fans would be able to pick and follow what they want, and canon nazi's wouldn't say boo about it because it's just different canons. No one would be excluded, no one would be wrong. I've made mentions to a certain Japanese franchise which has eight, and as of April 1st 2015, nine different canons. And that franchise gets along just fine, so why can't Alien-Predator?

Perfect-Organism

All good points.  I am all for the multi-canon idea, but I don't see a point for multi AVP canons.  My reasoning for that is that there doesn't need to be any conflicts between 1 AVP story and the next.  But then again I would have never expected to see Predators fighting Engineers a la FaS.  So whatevers I guess.  As long as the main Alien movie canon has Engineers but no predators in it, I'm cool with that.  I just don't get the appeal of the Predators anymore.  I think James' and Ridley's comments as well as AVPR ruined them for me.

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