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Author Topic: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection with Damon li...  (Read 7193 times)

ThisBethesdaSea

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #135 on: Apr 23, 2012, 07:19:24 PM »
Behind all of this is this question...Where did it begin. What birthed the stars? What bore matter? The AA theory is just as plausible as the God theory in a way. I don't so much believe in the AA theory in terms of them helping with the creation of humanity, rather, it makes more sense if we were visited and technology was helped along just a bit.

bioweapon

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #136 on: Apr 23, 2012, 07:48:52 PM »

The issue with the idea is that it tries to explain things that don't really need another explanation.
[/quote]

Alright, using the law of parsimony, you concede to evolution the two most important and still unsolved concepts on earth - being that, life itself and intelligence. (life is conceded to abiogenesis).

But, as C. Sagan and L. Shklovsky states, there should be serious consideration of paleocontact aka AA. And the basis of paleocontact should be taken in a more scientific way since is an intriguing and real possibility. As Crick&Orwell┬┤s Directed Panspermia.

Hell, even Dawkins admits a possibility at Intelligent Design. So you see this are not bullshit ignorance.

So is Directed Panspermia/ID, abiogeneses/evolution or god. Maybe a mix of them all. Until science reach a proper answer, i guess we can agree to stay confort in the beliefs we have.

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #137 on: Apr 24, 2012, 01:03:32 AM »
I very much doubt they would agree with this twisting of words. There are other kinds of contact with extraterrestrial life, sir, such as the impact of a meteorite that could have created a surge in life on the planet. That wouldn't require any such sentient being to do anything at all, and in fact it is very possible to have occurred not once, but many times. Rocks from space carrying all sorts of micro life that managed to survive the impact eons ago.

Valaquen

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #138 on: Apr 24, 2012, 02:54:12 AM »
Related:


Deuterium

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #139 on: Apr 24, 2012, 06:44:56 PM »
Related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rekVhaK6wfI#ws


Thanks for that, Valaquen.  Interesting documentary.

Speaking as a scientist who is also a person of faith, IMHO the documentary was a bit slanted in favor of Science at the expense of religious Faith...despite dealing with matters that are truly beyond the purview of Science.  I am the first to champion the scientific method, as a means to explore and explain our natural world, and by extension, our physical Universe.  However, there exist limits to empirical, observational science, especially when it comes to Cosmology (my discipline).  It is a bit disingenuous to imply that theoretical physicists hold any special authority, as it relates to the actual origin / creation of our Universe, when such arguments ultimately distill down to metaphysics.

Many "celebrity" theoretical scientists such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Leonard Susskind, Roger Penrose, etc., are avowed atheists.  Certainly, this "belief" (and it is a belief) has no bearing on their scientific contributions, which are undeniably meritorious.  However, it is precisely when they step beyond the boundries of science, and comment on matters that are beyond the limits of scientific observation and testing, that they stumble.

By definition, the Universe contains everything that is physical, and nothing that is non physical.  Space and time, are example of physical constructs.  The Universe contains space and time, but does not exist in space and time.  This is a fundamental principle of modern Cosmology/Astrophysics.  All physical objects are open to scientific scrutiny.  It is precisely the non-physical that is the arena of Faith and Religion.  Now, one can certainly deny the existence of anything non-physical.  However, IMHO, such a position is paradoxically non-scientific.  At best, one can only state that science can neither explore nor comment on such matters.
« Last Edit: Apr 24, 2012, 06:50:28 PM by Deuterium »

Capovin

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #140 on: Apr 24, 2012, 11:40:26 PM »
Related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rekVhaK6wfI#ws


Thanks for that, Valaquen.  Interesting documentary.

Speaking as a scientist who is also a person of faith, IMHO the documentary was a bit slanted in favor of Science at the expense of religious Faith...despite dealing with matters that are truly beyond the purview of Science.  I am the first to champion the scientific method, as a means to explore and explain our natural world, and by extension, our physical Universe.  However, there exist limits to empirical, observational science, especially when it comes to Cosmology (my discipline).  It is a bit disingenuous to imply that theoretical physicists hold any special authority, as it relates to the actual origin / creation of our Universe, when such arguments ultimately distill down to metaphysics.

Many "celebrity" theoretical scientists such as Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Leonard Susskind, Roger Penrose, etc., are avowed atheists.  Certainly, this "belief" (and it is a belief) has no bearing on their scientific contributions, which are undeniably meritorious.  However, it is precisely when they step beyond the boundries of science, and comment on matters that are beyond the limits of scientific observation and testing, that they stumble.

By definition, the Universe contains everything that is physical, and nothing that is non physical.  Space and time, are example of physical constructs.  The Universe contains space and time, but does not exist in space and time.  This is a fundamental principle of modern Cosmology/Astrophysics.  All physical objects are open to scientific scrutiny.  It is precisely the non-physical that is the arena of Faith and Religion.  Now, one can certainly deny the existence of anything non-physical.  However, IMHO, such a position is paradoxically non-scientific.  At best, one can only state that science can neither explore nor comment on such matters.


Now this I agree with and can totally get behind

ChrisPachi

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #141 on: Apr 25, 2012, 03:10:32 PM »
I am the first to champion the scientific method, as a means to explore and explain our natural world, and by extension, our physical Universe. [...] The Universe contains space and time, but does not exist in space and time.

If you don't mind I would love to pick your brains on this. To my thinking, if space and time and everything therein can be accurately explained by mathematical methods then surely the only reliable way we can imagine a landscape outside of the universe is by mathematical reasoning? Obviously the laws of physics go to shit at the boundaries of the universe, but could a robust mathematical theory of what goes on beyond that boundary be meaningful at all?

MR EL1M1NATOR

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #142 on: Apr 25, 2012, 03:11:17 PM »
Ridley Scott sure does like using the word evolve. I think in every interview I have seen so far he has said it about 10 times.

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #143 on: Apr 25, 2012, 04:31:59 PM »
Behind all of this is this question...Where did it begin. What birthed the stars? What bore matter? The AA theory is just as plausible as the God theory in a way. I don't so much believe in the AA theory in terms of them helping with the creation of humanity, rather, it makes more sense if we were visited and technology was helped along just a bit.

Supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies birth stars. Matter is the energy that permeates the universe and always was always is and always will be. Nobody could of created it because they themselves would have had to be made of it prior.  This is not hard to understand or even perceive, just hard to accept for those attached co-dependently to the Matrix of bullshit.  AA theory is far from plausible, it is as rediculous as the host of ancient aliens on the History Channel.  The God theory is just as rediculous unless you consider God to be the place where all energy exists as One (which in fact the originators of the idea of "God" consider it to be, ((not the catholic church or related factions)) ) before the big bang invented time and space.

Quote
  It is precisely the non-physical that is the arena of Faith and Religion.  Now, one can certainly deny the existence of anything non-physical.  However, IMHO, such a position is paradoxically non-scientific.  At best, one can only state that science can neither explore nor comment on such matters.

The Buddha Christ and others would disagree with you.  Belief in something without an existential foundation on which to base it is bad science, bad religion, and bad mental fung shui.  The idea of God comes from the experience of something which exists in perceivable reality by someone who experiences it. The aim of religion (originally) is to provide you with the practical means of experiencing this aspect of reality by removing that which inhibits it within you.
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2012, 04:45:45 PM by B1-66ER »

Deuterium

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #144 on: Apr 26, 2012, 09:06:34 PM »
I am the first to champion the scientific method, as a means to explore and explain our natural world, and by extension, our physical Universe. [...] The Universe contains space and time, but does not exist in space and time.

If you don't mind I would love to pick your brains on this. To my thinking, if space and time and everything therein can be accurately explained by mathematical methods then surely the only reliable way we can imagine a landscape outside of the universe is by mathematical reasoning? Obviously the laws of physics go to shit at the boundaries of the universe, but could a robust mathematical theory of what goes on beyond that boundary be meaningful at all?

Hi Chris, sorry for the late response...

Your question underlies a very deep, philosophical debate that has been going on for centuries.  The question is whether Mathematics is purely a construction of the human mind, or exists as an objective reality.  I happen to come down on the side with those who believe it exists on its own, regardless of human consciousness (mathematical realism).  In other words, mathematical objects/entities/constructs exists independent of the human mind.  We don't invent mathematics, but rather "discover" it.  Realists view Mathematical enties as existing a priori or human experience.

Conversely, there is a school of thought that asserts all abstract entities, including numbers, mathematical functions, etc., are "fictions" that do not have an objective existence.  Fictionalists reject the truth of the statement that "2 + 2 = 4", because it presumes the existence of abstract mathematical entities (numbers), which they deny.  It is kind of a crazy and subtle argument, but it is consistent.  Fictionalist view mathematical statements as false in reality, but true in the "fiction" of the story (in this case, the story of human mathematics).  An analogy would be the statement "Luke Skywalker is a jedi knight".  This statement is true within the fiction of George Lucas' Star Wars story, but is strictly speaking false in reality, because jedi knight's don't exist.  Fictionalists argue that abstract entities do not exist in space and time, and have no causal powers.  As such, they are utterly unlike any entities that we know about.  Of course, the main challenge to mathematical fictionalism is the general applicability of mathematics to our world of experience, and the specifically to it's utility in scientific inquiry and describing our natural world.

Ultimately, the question boils down to:

A)  Is mathematics invented, or discovered?
B)  Can abstract objects exist outside of space and time?

One other point, Chris.  You may have been using the word "boundary" as a metaphor...but in case you meant it in a physical sense, I just wanted to clarify that our Universe has no physical boundary.  Current cosmological observation/evidence indicates our observable (local) Universe's geometry is flat (k=0, Omega =1).  The global topology of our Universe is another issue, and without getting into specifics, is much more complicated.  One possible topology could be infinite and boundaryless (e.g. Euclidian flat space) or a finite, Compact space (e.g, the surface of a sphere).  Adding to the subtlety, an boundaryless flat space can still be topologically finite and Compact.  A torus is a case of a topologically flat, compact manifold.

However, in all cases, there exists no physical boundary or "edge". 

Predaker

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #145 on: Apr 26, 2012, 11:25:06 PM »
I am the first to champion the scientific method, as a means to explore and explain our natural world, and by extension, our physical Universe. [...] The Universe contains space and time, but does not exist in space and time.

If you don't mind I would love to pick your brains on this. To my thinking, if space and time and everything therein can be accurately explained by mathematical methods then surely the only reliable way we can imagine a landscape outside of the universe is by mathematical reasoning? Obviously the laws of physics go to shit at the boundaries of the universe, but could a robust mathematical theory of what goes on beyond that boundary be meaningful at all?

Hi Chris, sorry for the late response...

Your question underlies a very deep, philosophical debate that has been going on for centuries.  The question is whether Mathematics is purely a construction of the human mind, or exists as an objective reality.  I happen to come down on the side with those who believe it exists on its own, regardless of human consciousness (mathematical realism).  In other words, mathematical objects/entities/constructs exists independent of the human mind.  We don't invent mathematics, but rather "discover" it.  Realists view Mathematical enties as existing a priori or human experience.

Conversely, there is a school of thought that asserts all abstract entities, including numbers, mathematical functions, etc., are "fictions" that do not have an objective existence.  Fictionalists reject the truth of the statement that "2 + 2 = 4", because it presumes the existence of abstract mathematical entities (numbers), which they deny.  It is kind of a crazy and subtle argument, but it is consistent.  Fictionalist view mathematical statements as false in reality, but true in the "fiction" of the story (in this case, the story of human mathematics).  An analogy would be the statement "Luke Skywalker is a jedi knight".  This statement is true within the fiction of George Lucas' Star Wars story, but is strictly speaking false in reality, because jedi knight's don't exist.  Fictionalists argue that abstract entities do not exist in space and time, and have no causal powers.  As such, they are utterly unlike any entities that we know about.  Of course, the main challenge to mathematical fictionalism is the general applicability of mathematics to our world of experience, and the specifically to it's utility in scientific inquiry and describing our natural world.

Ultimately, the question boils down to:

A)  Is mathematics invented, or discovered?
B)  Can abstract objects exist outside of space and time?

One other point, Chris.  You may have been using the word "boundary" as a metaphor...but in case you meant it in a physical sense, I just wanted to clarify that our Universe has no physical boundary.  Current cosmological observation/evidence indicates our observable (local) Universe's geometry is flat (k=0, Omega =1).  The global topology of our Universe is another issue, and without getting into specifics, is much more complicated.  One possible topology could be infinite and boundaryless (e.g. Euclidian flat space) or a finite, Compact space (e.g, the surface of a sphere).  Adding to the subtlety, an boundaryless flat space can still be topologically finite and Compact.  A torus is a case of a topologically flat, compact manifold.

However, in all cases, there exists no physical boundary or "edge".
Interesting read. Funny, the paradox of abstract entities not existing in space and time. (or having causal powers)

"If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."

ChrisPachi

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #146 on: Apr 26, 2012, 11:28:51 PM »
A fascinating subject, thanks for the in-depth reply! I have had a similar discussion with a good friend who works as a theoretical neurophysicist and he is also in the realist camp, so I'll chalk that up to a win on the realists side, for me anyway. ;)

I guess the crux of my question was point B; whether mathematical objects can have any meaning when used to describe something 'not in' the universe. This might be terribly simplistic, but if you think of mathematics as the study of the relationship between quantities, then the idea of quantity might be meaningless beyond the universe, but it can also be thought of as the study of patterns, so maybe in this latter case it could have some meaning.

And I meant 'boundary' literally, assuming in my layman way that a black hole could be thought of as such a boundary, and that the 'outer edge' of the universe might be viewed the same way, just in reverse. This was based on a theory about white holes that I remember reading and the speculation that it might be a way to imagine the 'inner surface' of the universe. I guess it's moot though, because in any case nothing inside the universe can even get outside of it. I italicize 'inside' and 'outside' because I understand that these terms are totally insufficient in this context.

Anyway this is way off topic but hopefully some other members find it as fascinating as I do. Thanks again.
« Last Edit: Apr 26, 2012, 11:31:43 PM by ChrisPachi »

Predaker

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #147 on: Apr 27, 2012, 12:31:34 AM »
Touching a bit more on the abstract entities not having causal powers part...

God does not meddle in the affairs of humans because God's gift is free will.

Yet this approach bestows much power unto mankind, given the possibilities of free will.

Deuterium

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #148 on: Apr 27, 2012, 12:41:19 AM »
Touching a bit more on the abstract entities not having causal powers part...

God does not meddle in the affairs of humans because God's gift is free will.

Yet this approach bestows much power unto mankind, given the possibilities of free will.

Hello, Predaker,

This is a specific  argument I have made many, many times on this forum.  So, personally, I am an absolute agreement.

ThisBethesdaSea

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Re: Ridley Scott on the Alien connection...
« Reply #149 on: Apr 27, 2012, 01:30:11 AM »
It was MAN that wrote that Gods gift is free will. The architecture, and personality of God has been entirely contructed by man.

 

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