Happy Birthday David (New Prometheus Viral)

Started by shamash, Apr 17, 2012, 09:33:18 AM

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Happy Birthday David (New Prometheus Viral) (Read 61,845 times)

Xenomorphine

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 21, 2012, 01:50:38 AM
I would say you're being a bit stingy too in one respect SM. Ash was given special orders. IE: programmed, tampered with, to do something likely outside of the regular programming of these "suit" type droids.

I very much doubt the company built their robots to go on magazine oral rape and attempted murder sprees. Granted, it does make for a rousing Friday night...

That's not "tampering". That's just giving the thing new instructions.

Tampering would be along the lines of literally altering its programming. Ash never gave any such indications. Computers don't interpret one set of orders as dodgy and another as not. If a computer's capable of seeing them through, then it'll see them through. Whether or not the machine is optimally designed to carry out a particular task or not, is neither here nor there.

As for Ash's model, Bishop did state "the A/2s always were a bit twitchy", implying they were not yet at the level of processing which the Bishops are.

However, it's worth keeping in mind that we don't know if Weyland-Yutani made Ash or not. Building robots might be something they got out of, by that time. I'd say we also don't know if they made the Bishops, but the quote in 'Alien 3', where Bishop mentioned all data going back to the company's network, implied they might have. We don't know the background of that, though - Bishop might simply have been aware of it happening with other equipment, as opposed to being responsible for facilitating it.

OpenMaw

Quote from: Xenomorphine on Apr 21, 2012, 04:48:57 AM
However, it's worth keeping in mind that we don't know if Weyland-Yutani made Ash or not. Building robots might be something they got out of, by that time. I'd say we also don't know if they made the Bishops, but the quote in 'Alien 3', where Bishop mentioned all data going back to the company's network, implied they might have. We don't know the background of that, though - Bishop might simply have been aware of it happening with other equipment, as opposed to being responsible for facilitating it.

It's not indicated in the film, but I always assumed the situation with Ash going peculiar was caused by some kind of a conflict in his programming more than anything. Much like HAL in 2001.

EGM1966

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 21, 2012, 04:57:53 AM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Apr 21, 2012, 04:48:57 AM
However, it's worth keeping in mind that we don't know if Weyland-Yutani made Ash or not. Building robots might be something they got out of, by that time. I'd say we also don't know if they made the Bishops, but the quote in 'Alien 3', where Bishop mentioned all data going back to the company's network, implied they might have. We don't know the background of that, though - Bishop might simply have been aware of it happening with other equipment, as opposed to being responsible for facilitating it.

It's not indicated in the film, but I always assumed the situation with Ash going peculiar was caused by some kind of a conflict in his programming more than anything. Much like HAL in 2001.

Ash seems fine until Ripley smacks him around.  After that we see white fluid leaking indicating he is damaged, you also get a nice subtle performance by Holm with flickering eyes, etc. when he ponders what to do with Ripley after knocking her out.

I'd say Alien clearly shows Ash is following his programming fine then Ripley breaks some of the inner workings inside his head when she unexpectedly erupts and bashes him around.  After that he goes wonky in how he operates.

Remember his programming the whole time was to protect the Alien.  Clearly at some point that might mean getting rid of any crew who oppose him and clearly he was more than willing to do so.  He just went "funny" in how he went about things because his functioning was impaired due to damage.

Lssar

"David, what makes you sad?"

Camera close up of David´s face.

"...War ...

... Poverty ...

... Cruelty ..."


Camera closer to David´s face.

"... Unnecessary violence"


It looks like the video wants to highlight this nuance regarding violence. I wonder what David could be programmed in each moment to understand as necessary or not ...

Eva

I think it's a given that Ash was somewhat unique, meaning not coming from a mass production assembly line like David or Bishop. Ash was essentially an infiltrator android, designed and programmed to 'disguise' himself as a real human being.

However, Ashs 'chassis' if you want to call it that, could be from the standard mold. But his physical appearance and mission agenda clearly wasn't.

ChrisPachi

Quote from: EGM1966 on Apr 21, 2012, 10:09:18 AMAsh seems fine until Ripley smacks him around.  After that we see white fluid leaking indicating he is damaged, you also get a nice subtle performance by Holm with flickering eyes, etc. when he ponders what to do with Ripley after knocking her out.

It certainly could come across that way, but she barely 'smacks him around' IMO. She just pushes him up against a wall. I would hazard that it's more what OpenMaw said; that he comes across a situation that he is not prepared to deal with, ie. being found out. His response to this is purely instinctive from that point on.

Xenomorphine

Quote from: Eva on Apr 21, 2012, 04:03:59 PM
I think it's a given that Ash was somewhat unique, meaning not coming from a mass production assembly line like David or Bishop.

Burke and Bishop stated otherwise.

MrSpaceJockey

At the same time, I think Ash's face was probably specific (not all A/2s looked like Ian Holm, basically).  It would be a lot harder to fool the Nostromo's crew otherwise.

Xenomorphine

Quote from: MrSpaceJockey on Apr 22, 2012, 05:06:56 AM
At the same time, I think Ash's face was probably specific (not all A/2s looked like Ian Holm, basically).  It would be a lot harder to fool the Nostromo's crew otherwise.

Unless it was new or a prototype version.

Deuterium

Quote from: ChrisPachi on Apr 22, 2012, 12:00:56 AM
It certainly could come across that way, but she barely 'smacks him around' IMO. She just pushes him up against a wall. I would hazard that it's more what OpenMaw said; that he comes across a situation that he is not prepared to deal with, ie. being found out. His response to this is purely instinctive from that point on.

Yes sir, totally concur.

OpenMaw

Quote from: ChrisPachi on Apr 22, 2012, 12:00:56 AM
It certainly could come across that way, but she barely 'smacks him around' IMO. She just pushes him up against a wall. I would hazard that it's more what OpenMaw said; that he comes across a situation that he is not prepared to deal with, ie. being found out. His response to this is purely instinctive from that point on.


Yeah see, I'd have a hard time buying that these androids can be cut in half, and have their heads knocked off, and still be in some fashion functional, and yet just a bump to the head is all it would take to send them into a homicidal incident.


Especially when you consider that there was nothing in Ashes orders stating he should try to make type vicariously with a magazine to Ripley's face. A machine, even one that's bugging out, is going to try to stay as close to programming. Deal with the crew by killing them means. Snap their necks, liquefy their hearts with a punch to the chest. Ash clearly has some immense strength given what we see of him in the fight with Parkar.


Still. I think David really is shaping up to be one of the more interesting film characters I've seen in any sort of film for quite some time. If he's done properly within the film he could rival many other android characters.

Xenomorphine

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 22, 2012, 04:44:08 PM
Yeah see, I'd have a hard time buying that these androids can be cut in half, and have their heads knocked off, and still be in some fashion functional, and yet just a bump to the head is all it would take to send them into a homicidal incident.

Why?

Humans can survive all sorts of things, but damage something critical and they can act very weird. It doesn't take a huge amount of force, depending on what you're trying to do.

I've got an MP3 player which can survive being run over by a vehicle, but I'm sure that if I accidentally harmed it in some other way it wouldn't perform fabulously. :)

We have no way to know what Ash's structural limits were or how the processors were protected. Or, for that matter, if it had an existing error which was being aggravated.

I've always said that the method by which it attempted to kill Ripley signified something was very wrong. It's horridly inefficient. But it's always seemed like the intention was to show that Ripley's actions led to some sort of cognitive errors. Someone with more time than I can try and see if there are any quotes or anything on the various director commentaries to verify this aspect. :)

Don't forget, either, that Ash was acting apparently fine after decapitation. It seemed to be more of a situational thing.

timiteh

My only gripings with this movie thus far are related to the technology of the Space Jockey who are supposed to be millions of years old.
First, i wonder how exactly such an advanced races do not have better protection of the access to their technology from intruders. This remind me of the alike of Stargate where humans were are able to do whatever they want in Goauld ship without being detected.

Second, i wonder how come a human ship seems able to damage a ship of this race to the point that this ship has no other choice than to crash. Is this race unable to build ships with protective  shield or an completely indestructible, compared to human weapons or means, hull ?
I have alway find disapointing the inability of an ancient space faring race to have significant protection agaisnt lesser races.Normally, such a race should have at least once met an agressive race with similar technology level. How then this race manage to defend itself agaisnt other advanced hostile races ?

Third, i also wonder how a member of this race is not able to protect itself against a face hugger ?
I mean such an advanced race should have several safeguards against creature as limited as face hugger.

This is quite disapointing for an ancient space travelling race.

ryanjayhawk

Quote from: timiteh on Apr 25, 2012, 03:00:11 PM
My only gripings with this movie thus far are related to the technology of the Space Jockey who are supposed to be millions of years old.
First, i wonder how exactly such an advanced races do not have better protection of the access to their technology from intruders. This remind me of the alike of Stargate where humans were are able to do whatever they want in Goauld ship without being detected.

Second, i wonder how come a human ship seems able to damage a ship of this race to the point that this ship has no other choice than to crash. Is this race unable to build ships with protective  shield or an completely indestructible, compared to human weapons or means, hull ?
I have alway find disapointing the inability of an ancient space faring race to have significant protection agaisnt lesser races.Normally, such a race should have at least once met an agressive race with similar technology level. How then this race manage to defend itself agaisnt other advanced hostile races ?

Third, i also wonder how a member of this race is not able to protect itself against a face hugger ?
I mean such an advanced race should have several safeguards against creature as limited as face hugger.

This is quite disapointing for an ancient space travelling race.

Agreed...

If you take away the idea from Independence Day that we would be able to "hack" and alien computer system and infect it with a virus... which seems completely implausible, then they pretty much got the rest right in terms of us being completely unable to do much of anything except hide.

I'm not saying even an advanced race wouldn't be susceptible to attack, but not by ramming their ship... and it appears that the United States has more security for things they want to keep secret than the Jockey's...

Xenomorphine

Quote from: timiteh on Apr 25, 2012, 03:00:11 PM
First, i wonder how exactly such an advanced races do not have better protection of the access to their technology from intruders.

The place seems to have been dormant for a very long time. Things might have broken or simply corroded away. Also the possibility that, much like Egyptian tombs, once these powerful beings went to 'sleep', other species came along and plundered their facilities for anything particularly useful, meaning that, by the time human beings got there, much was stripped away.

QuoteSecond, i wonder how come a human ship seems able to damage a ship of this race to the point that this ship has no other choice than to crash. Is this race unable to build ships with protective  shield or an completely indestructible, compared to human weapons or means, hull ?

1: Kinetic energy, especially between large objects, is tremendous.

2: What makes you think energy shielding is possible in this franchise? Or even that, if it were, that whatever the Space Jockeys might have made would necessarily be enough to protect against what happens in this?

3: There is also the very real possibility that, since they've been in some sort of hibernation for a massively long time, a lot of their systems might not even have survived in a functional state.

4: We have no idea at what stage of technological development they were in before going in stasis. It's very possible that they might have completely missed certain areas of technology which we didn't and vice versa. For instance, what if we had mass produced the jet engine in the 1920s/1930s, when it was discovered? Our present world might have been very different! There's a science-fiction story which deals with this. I forget the title, but it's basically an alien invasion story and the hostile visitors are eventually thwarted and destroyed by the deployment of armoured tanks: In their development, they never came up with the concept of them. Just because you can build spaceships and lasers doesn't mean you came up with spears or guns. :)

5: What 'they' found hugely powerful might not be the same to us. An example of this is the old thing you often find in science-fiction, where an alien species is shown to be superior because they have organic ships. The actual truth being that organic ships would be ridiculously easy to beat and vulnerable to all kinds of things the 'normal' ones are not!

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