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Will fans ever make peace?

No, whoever wins, we lose
21 (38.9%)
Yes! I was totally wrong about Alien/Aliens/Alien3/Predator 2/AVP/Predators being a bad film!
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Perhaps someday
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Forget this poll, enough with the god-forsaken canon rant threads already!!! :-)
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Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate, and all canon...  (Read 9869 times)

predxeno

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #30 on: Mar 06, 2012, 08:16:31 PM »
Well in the EU, the humans also reverse engineer a crashed Predator ship that landed on Earth in order to travel to the stars.

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #31 on: Mar 06, 2012, 08:39:16 PM »
I still consider AVP to be canon in the Prometheus timeline.  For those people who say that there is no way that humans could have technologically evolved space travel by the time the movie takes place, a lot of this is easily explained away with the Predator technology acquired by the humans in AVPR.

Lol this thread is mostly full of "oh my god, there's going to be a flame war."

Easily explained away?  The reverse-engineering of a single energy weapon from an alien race can easily explain away FTL travel and/or cryotubes almost a century in the future?

That in no way makes it easy to explain, much less explain away.

As for the OP, I'm curious why people don't exclude things from canon that contradict the movie-established storyline.  It's a simple thing to do, and helps the story maintain maturity as well as a better continuity.  You have to start somewhere, why not start with the way canon has been formed and decided from movie-source material for years?

Comics, toys, and video games that are film-related have usually been marketing or extensions, but never given the weight of a film unless specifically stated so by the controlling authority.  This is definitely the exception instead of the rule.

This should be obvious, but people have to make things more complicated by denying this obvious canon tool and trying to fit things that don't, and won't, fit.

It's futile, and will lead to frustration or one jacked-up and inconsistent storyline.  I'll take a reduced canon that goes by the great movies I love and makes more sense than trying to fit in AvP toothpaste and lunchboxes just because Fox made a few horrible obvious cash-cow movies that didn't pay attention to the originals they stole from.

Alternately, I'd rather include the EU that I enjoy if it means I have to overlook some inconsistencies that really don't hurt anything. If I have to ignore or reinterpret 1 throwaway line in 'Alien Resurrection' so I can include EU materials that I feel are in many regards superior to 'Alien Resurrection', that seems like a no-brainer to me. I'd rather have a larger, more inclusive "universe" at the expense of some degree of consistency.

Saying "it's always been movies, therefore it should always be movies" is circular reasoning and a logical fallacy.

You're acting like ignoring the EU is the "obvious" choice, or that those who opt not to are objectively "wrong" or something. It's personal preference.
Like seriously, why do you even care? You seem genuinely upset that people would ignore "the obvious canon tool" as you put it. What difference does it make what people do or don't choose to include?

If every contradiction, no matter how small, is grounds for omitting a source, why not just say that only 'Alien' is "canon" and end it right there? You could argue that the sequels contradict 'Alien' (and each other) on various levels so obviously if you wanted a "mature", tightly-plotted universe you'd want to omit everything except 'Alien', no?
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2012, 08:50:39 PM by Xenomrph »

Valaquen

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #32 on: Mar 06, 2012, 08:55:04 PM »
Ignoring inconsistencies because you enjoy something on the contrary is a fallacy in itself.
I hate taking philosophy out of the lecture hall. And canon debates. *shields self*

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #33 on: Mar 06, 2012, 08:58:56 PM »
Ignoring inconsistencies because you enjoy something on the contrary is a fallacy in itself.
I hate taking philosophy out of the lecture hall. And canon debates. *shields self*
But it's not a fallacy since we're talking about fiction and it comes down to personal choice anyway. RagingDragon was acting like there's some sort of objective "correct" choice when it comes to canon (or at least he was trying to rationalize his own personal choice that way) and I was showing that his views boil down to personal preference just as much as people who choose to accept the EU. The reasoning he was stating was a logical fallacy at best, and if you actually follow through with his line of reasoning you end up with the sequels getting disregarded anyway.

And everyone will do whatever they want anyway so what difference does it make?
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2012, 09:01:09 PM by Xenomrph »

RagingDragon

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #34 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:04:38 PM »
Okay, let's get stupid here.

If the fans are free to assemble any sort of canon they would like, it isn't a canon, just personal preference.  The two words contradict each other, canon =/= personal preference.  It makes no sense, but is really one of the few choices left to A/P/AvP fans.

So since we're talking about canon, as per the above definition of being something that is defined by events and facts within a story rather than through the interpretations of the audience over several disconnected and possibly contradicting stories, we have to look at what has been produced and go from there.

The movies are the source material for all EU, in this case.

The obvious must now again be stated, because it isn't already obvious enough:

In most EU, toys, video games, and comics (to a point, especially recently) are targeted towards children and considered disposable.  Now, if we can safely put the insanity of including all of that crap in a movie's canon to the side, we can concentrate on EU material that isn't directed at children, like novels and novelizations.

(Note for clarity - You'll notice that the three above categories, toys, video games, comics, are often simply understood to be extensions/marketing of a product instead of canon-establishing story extensions to the product (like a film sequel.)  Most toys don't tell a story related to the movie, comics are all over the place, and video games have never been so advanced that they have the capability to tell a story via the game that could have the clout and presentation to match a film they were based from until recently.  Colonial Marines will have a big impact on this area.

Basically, there's no regulation because the media industry understands what these things are: disposable.  They don't effect the movies, or the canon, unless the studio comes out and says they do, so they don't have to worry about cleaning up any messes, just making money.

Only in dark superfan dungeons on the internet do these issues arise where common sense is simply abandoned in a desperate argument to make sense of a mess.

I write those things off, even if I like them, because they were never intended to establish film-level canon.  That's just common sense, and if you disagree or don't get it, stop reading now.)

Moving on, we have a wide array of novels and even novelisations that can expand a story quite a bit.  As far as these things establishing canon, It follows suit they're licensing agreements like the rest and dismissed by studios with the aforementioned three other EU categories, but since they are traditionally a more adult media, it's excusable to want to include them as part of an R-rated film canon.  They can offer some great efforts that expand a property...

Some real answers could be found in Fox's licensing agreements to companies like Dark Horse, which I don't know about.  The basics of getting a license for an intellectual property are so that an outside company may produce and market that property without infringing on copyright and trademark laws.

If Fox authorizes licensors to establish canon, then there it is, and we're all stuck dealing with this shit storm mess.  If not, then it's marketing to create products in the same universe (that may or may not be consistent) with no bearing on the film universe at all.

I mean there's a lot to that.  If Dark Horse f-ed up canon so bad, why renew their license?  Probably because it makes money! 

Xenomprh, not replying to you because -
A) You believe that a sequel that expands on an original film is a retcon because no one saw the new stuff in the first film.

B) You get emotional because I bother you.

predxeno

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #35 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:25:49 PM »
If you look too closely at any series whether they by TV, movie, or video game, you are bound to find inconsistencies somewhere; AVP is no exception.

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #36 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:33:06 PM »
Quote
If the fans are free to assemble any sort of canon they would like, it isn't a canon, just personal preference.
This is exactly correct and the entire point. :)

The fans don't get to decide what "canon" is, they don't own the franchise. Fox, on the other hand, does own the franchise and gets to decide what's canon and what's not. Seeing as how most fans don't like FOX's opinion on the matter (the EU is canon, AvP is part of both Aliens and Predator, etc) and disregard what they say anyway, we're back at the first point you made: the fans are free to assemble any canon they like for themselves.

Quote
In most EU, toys, video games, and comics (to a point, especially recently) are targeted towards children and considered disposable. 
That's not just an opinion, it also has no bearing on anything. Everything in Star Wars is canon (on some level) unless explicitly pointed out by LFL, up to and including video games, comics, and even some of the toys. That's right, some of the "action features" in some of the toys have cropped up in other sources and are considered "canon".

Quote
I write those things off, even if I like them, because they were never intended to establish film-level canon.  That's just common sense, and if you disagree or don't get it, stop reading now.
But this only matters if you care about the phrase "film-level canon", or if you care about the "intent".

Quote
Some real answers could be found in Fox's licensing agreements to companies like Dark Horse, which I don't know about.  The basics of getting a license for an intellectual property are so that an outside company may produce and market that property without infringing on copyright and trademark laws.

If Fox authorizes licensors to establish canon, then there it is, and we're all stuck dealing with this shit storm mess.  If not, then it's marketing to create products in the same universe (that may or may not be consistent) with no bearing on the film universe at all.
FOX's licensing department has a "continuity bible" and an official AvP timeline (which they keep internally and don't disclose the specifics of with their licensees like Dark Horse or whoever) but any time something EU gets licensed it has to be cleared with the licensing department. Sometimes FOX kills certain ideas (the Alien and Predator "homeworlds" have long been off-limits topics for Dark Horse, for example, going so far as to retcon their existence out of the comics when they initially showed up, at FOX's request) or asks for things to be changed, and the end result I've heard from numerous authors and DH staff I've asked is that yes, the EU stuff is considered "canon". Shit, FOX even got hands-on with the 'Predators' movie action figures and designed the packaging themselves (as opposed to having NECA doing it in-house like they do with most of their stuff) and ended up littering the packaging with a bunch of AvP and EU references. The topic came up in some interviews with Gearbox staff regarding the Colonial Marines game, and they said that FOX is considering the game "canon".

However, more importantly, you're not bound by anything FOX says because it's fiction and entertainment and why should you let FOX dictate to you what you can enjoy and how you can enjoy it? Why should you let anybody?
We already have these forums "segregated" such that the movie subforums don't include EU materials for those who don't want to acknowledge them, etc.

Quote
A) You believe that a sequel that expands on an original film is a retcon because no one saw the new stuff in the first film.
That's because that's what a retcon is. By definition, that is a retcon. It's something in a later source that changes information you (thought you) knew about a prior source.

Quote
B) You get emotional because I bother you.
I think you've got that mixed up there, ace. :) I think I bother you, and you get emotional about it.
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2012, 10:34:40 PM by Xenomrph »

SM

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #37 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:40:50 PM »
What it boils down to is Fox isn't interested in keeping any sort of singular continuity ever since they let Dark Horse write comics featuring Hicks and Newt, while they were developing Alien3 with no intention of following the comic storyline.

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #38 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:43:54 PM »
And then FOX stepped in and had stuff changed so citing the Hicks and Newt thing is kind of a non-issue since it got fixed. FOX not caring before doesn't mean they don't care (to some degree) now. Lucasfilm didn't give a flip about "canon" when 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' or the Marvel comics were coming out, but it's pretty obvious their view on canon isn't the same as it was as 1978.

The bottom line is that whether you like FOX's approach or not, you're still free to make your own decisions on what you take as "canon" anyway. You said it yourself on the first page:
Fans are free to pick and choose, and those who try to tell you they shouldn't should really just f**k right off.
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2012, 10:46:01 PM by Xenomrph »

Nero the Jackal

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #39 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:47:58 PM »
Actually i heard star wars does have canon since someone said george considers his films canon only, the games another canon and the books another.
I think someone on here said it.
Anyway what is a solid fact is that the movies are canon.

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #40 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:52:08 PM »
Actually i heard star wars does have canon since someone said george considers his films canon only, the games another canon and the books another.
I think someone on here said it.
Anyway what is a solid fact is that the movies are canon.

Star Wars has a multi-tier canon system - the movies (and some other specific things) are up at the top, and then you have other things ranked below it. The tiers only matter in the event of a contradiction, though - if the movies say one thing and the novels say another, the movie's info takes precedent because it's on a higher tier. However it's still on a case-by-case basis - it's not like you throw out the entire source, you just throw out that bit of information that's contradicted by a higher source.

And again, this only matters in the event of a contradiction. At the end of the day it's all still "canon".

If you want an in-depth explanation of Star Wars "canon" (with a bunch of quotes and examples and whatnot), I suggest this page.

Nero the Jackal

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #41 on: Mar 06, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »
Well i will always take the movies canon first and only that until a fox person who been part of the company since the first alien and therefore knows his/her stuff and says in clear words what is canon and what is not, dark horse people or any other non-fox people do not count or should not.

Again i say i just personally consider the films canon and the E.U non-canon as an opinion only until proven undisputedly otherwise.

I think a lot people feel threatened when someone says its non-canon, i have no idea why since being non-canon does not equal crapness and badness, indeed i found some E.U downright amusing.

RagingDragon

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #42 on: Mar 06, 2012, 11:02:09 PM »
To be fair, I don't like you.  But that was a good reply to my lengthy post.   :laugh:

Your Star Wars example is tired because they're the most popular company, and one of the only ones, to be so involved with their own EU.  It's different with Star Wars because they've made it that way, Lucas has, and everybody should know that by now.

Exception, not the rule.

But this only matters if you care about the phrase "film-level canon", or if you care about the "intent".

That's not just an opinion, it also has no bearing on anything.

What are the intent of toys?  Who is the target demographic, adults?  Must be opinion.  But wait...

You've made it abundantly clear that because you are capable of having an opinion, everyone else must acknowledge this and it is suddenly dragged into the physical universe.  Your opinion that the facehugger was an independent organism was just as valid as the right answer simply because you thought it up and Fox wasn't around to say "no," but according to the boundaries by which we were defining the discussion, it wasn't valid at all.

You just insisted that it was.

That's unreasonable.

So is saying something like this:
However, more importantly, you're not bound by anything FOX says because it's fiction and entertainment and why should you let FOX dictate to you what you can enjoy and how you can enjoy it? Why should you let anybody?
We already have these forums "segregated" such that the movie subforums don't include EU materials for those who don't want to acknowledge them, etc.
You are basically saying that I am alive and the movie doesn't physically restrict my thoughts.

Just what in the?

And then you made that statement more important than the entire previous rest of your post by saying:

Quote
more importantly

So I'm feeling a little shaky about the actual meaning you could be assigning to the word "opinion."

But ignoring the important part of your post above, this here:

FOX's licensing department has a "continuity bible" and an official AvP timeline (which they keep internally and don't disclose the specifics of with their licensees like Dark Horse or whoever) but any time something EU gets licensed it has to be cleared with the licensing department. Sometimes FOX kills certain ideas (the Alien and Predator "homeworlds" have long been off-limits topics for Dark Horse, for example, going so far as to retcon their existence out of the comics when they initially showed up, at FOX's request) or asks for things to be changed, and the end result I've heard from numerous authors and DH staff I've asked is that yes, the EU stuff is considered "canon". Shit, FOX even got hands-on with the 'Predators' movie action figures and designed the packaging themselves (as opposed to having NECA doing it in-house like they do with most of their stuff) and ended up littering the packaging with a bunch of AvP and EU references. The topic came up in some interviews with Gearbox staff regarding the Colonial Marines game, and they said that FOX is considering the game "canon".
This stuff was all great that I didn't know.  But honestly if there is some sort of apocryphal continuity bible, why don't they ever seem to read it?  My only belief is that if Fox kills a certain idea, it's because they either think it's not going to make them as much money or they want to save it for as much future-money making as possible.  The easier and more likely answer to everything in this paragraph is that Fox wanted more money.

Colonial Marines is going to be its' own case, I think.

I hope people are enjoying our little back-and-forth, it's exhausting.

And don't take anything personal, I don't feel like being reported today.

SM

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #43 on: Mar 06, 2012, 11:04:47 PM »
Quote
And then FOX stepped in and had stuff changed so citing the Hicks and Newt thing is kind of a non-issue since it got fixed. FOX not caring before doesn't mean they don't care (to some degree) now.

But they still don't care.  They didn't care when they developed Alien Resurrection and it wrote off all the comics - again - and they still don't care when they let a guy write a Predator novel and he's oblivious to the long established term 'Yautja'.

It's not like Star Wars where films rule all and everything else has to conform.  In Alien, films are oblivious to all other licensed material other than films (which may change again if Prometheus excises AvP).  PLUS the EU often doesn't have a single coherent continuity either.  Current case in point is how precisely Colonial Marines, Alien3 - The Gun, Extermination, CMTM, Infestation, AvP (original FPS), and Female War all fit together when covering much of the same events surrounding the Sulaco and Derelict (which the Resurrection novel says was destroyed anyway).

As should be obvious, I'm not trying to force any particular view of canon.  However pretending Fox is actively looking after it is - to be kind - naive.

Xenomrph

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Re: The AVP vs. Prometheus Canon Debate,...
« Reply #44 on: Mar 06, 2012, 11:17:28 PM »
Quote
What are the intent of toys?  Who is the target demographic, adults?

What difference does it make?
As an aside, the target demographic of any Aliens/Predator toys released after, say, 2000 has been adults. :P

Quote
You've made it abundantly clear that because you are capable of having an opinion, everyone else must acknowledge this and it is suddenly dragged into the physical universe.  Your opinion that the facehugger was an independent organism was just as valid as the right answer simply because you thought it up and Fox wasn't around to say "no," but according to the boundaries by which we were defining the discussion, it wasn't valid at all.

You just insisted that it was.

That's unreasonable.

No, it's called death of the author and it's not exactly a new concept.
Me having an opinion, especially if it's one I can (and have) articulated, does make it valid. This doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but it also doesn't mean you get to just instantly write it off as automatically "false".

And I don't see how it's incompatible with what I was saying - FOX has said what they feel is "canon", but that shouldn't stop anyone from deciding for themselves what they want to include.
Just like if a creator says "the facehugger is *this*" and someone else can interpret it differently, they're totally free to.

Quote
But ignoring the important part of your post above, this here:

but that's not the important part of my post. The important part of my post was the part I helpfully labeled as "more importantly". :P

Quote
But honestly if there is some sort of apocryphal continuity bible, why don't they ever seem to read it?  My only belief is that if Fox kills a certain idea, it's because they either think it's not going to make them as much money or they want to save it for as much future-money making as possible.  The easier and more likely answer to everything in this paragraph is that Fox wanted more money.

But that's opinion at best, and completely irrelevant.

Quote
But they still don't care.  They didn't care when they developed Alien Resurrection and it wrote off all the comics - again - and they still don't care when they let a guy write a Predator novel and he's oblivious to the long established term 'Yautja'.

Yeah and then they stepped in and said "this Hish thing was a bad idea, stop doing it" and started using "Yautja" again on the 'Predators' merchandise packaging that they developed.

Quote
However pretending Fox is actively looking after it is - to be kind - naive.

Actively looking after it to the degree it could be? Sure. But to say they ignore it wholesale isn't accurate either.
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2012, 11:21:57 PM by Xenomrph »

 

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