Is the predator OP?

Started by RumorControl, Feb 24, 2010, 01:24:09 AM

Author
Is the predator OP? (Read 122,834 times)

MadassAlex

MadassAlex

#900
Someone needs see what we can do about talking the AvP2010 assets into the Source SDK so we can mod test models of this kind of thing.

sj.FOX

sj.FOX

#901
Quote from: newbeing on Apr 10, 2010, 01:10:03 PM
I think the worst part of Pred vs Alien melee is the stun. If a pred even hits you with a light attack or pounce, you can't move or get away, so its just basically degrades to sitting there waiting for the Pred to finish you off.
Aliens have the same stun from light attack and pounce when the opponent is facing forward.

x2SMONEY

x2SMONEY

#902
If you have all the weapons it is.  :-\

happypred

happypred

#903
Just had to clear this up...
Quote from: 101ST Starwind on Feb 28, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
If you want to get technical, we could go by the Darkhorse AVP novels, in which the Elite pred who is missing a tusk is honored as being one of the only, if not the only, living pred to have gone against a Xenomorph with just his wrist blades and lived.
Wrong. He killed it with his bare hands:
Spoiler
That name meant "different knife," and it referred to his left lower tusk, broken in a bare-handed fight against the Hard Meat, the kainde amedha, they of the black armored exoskeletons and acid blood.
. . .
His own trophy wall on the homeworld held half a dozen of the Hard Meat skulls, bleached and clean, including the one he had killed with his bare hands, as well as a queen, taken during a hellish hunt in which nine already-Blooded warriors had died. He had killed fifty others, but had kept, as was proper, only those he had thought worthy of his wall.They were fierce, but usually no challenge to one such as himself. If he had occasion to face one on these Hunts, he would limit himself to spear or wrist knife. After all, any yautja could burn the Hard Meat; a Leader had to handicap himself.

- Prey
[close]

In Hunter's Planet, another predator is known to have accomplished a similar feat:
Spoiler
Nat'ka'pu laughed mockingly. "You are fools, all of you, and yet at the first part of the Path lies the door of the fool."
"Perhaps you should show us the door, Leader," suggested Ki'vik'non.
"Perhaps I should show your intestines the point of my spear!" barked the commander.
"It is true," said the short adjutant, whose name was Lar'nix'va. "These are rank beginners and have never sucked Hard Meat before. It is not fitting that a few feints be made by the Blooded-especially when the Blooded is said to have fought the Hard Meat bare-fisted."
"And torn off its head!" spat Nat'ka'pu proudly. "Very well. But mark my methods, for I will leave the final killing to you, my students."
That said, the Leader turned and walked jauntily.

- Hunter's Planet
[close]

Quote from: 101ST Starwind on Feb 28, 2010, 07:03:07 PMOf course, on the flip side the Combistick is a melee weapon primarily in that book, and using it allows him to defeat several Xenos at once.
"Several" is misleading. He killed ten to twelve rushing him at once:
Spoiler
They came in a single-file stream, flowed from around a structure, ten, maybe twelve. Dachande leapt to greet them. Two arrived first, angled in from the sides. Dachande spun, swung completely around, cut them both through their midsections in one strike. He didn't watch them hit the ground; there was no need-they were dead and all he need do was avoid the throes. He extended his kicti-pa and slashed through the throat of the next drone nearest, to his right. The drone's death cry was garbled through its own thwei. A split second later, he jabbed the staff point through the jaws of another, twisted the sharp blade and dug a hole through the top of the skull. The weapon's metal was proof against the Hard Meat's thwei, but there was no time to hesitate and enjoy the kill-when you fought the ten thousand, you did so one at a time, but you also had to do so quickly He thrust the spear's butt back, hard, and knocked one behind him down, then turned and slashed its gut. Digest this, foolish creature! The kicti-pa blurred again, jammed backhand into yet another Hard Meat chest. The drone howled, fell, did not die but did not rise again. Acid pumped into the dark air, pooled, smoking. Dachande jumped forward, stabbed the throat of yet another, and then spun to meet the next. Death fell all around his feet as he and the Hard Meat danced.

- Prey
[close]

CyberDemon13

CyberDemon13

#904
Yes. Yes they are. ;D

magical_boy

magical_boy

#905
Quote from: CyberDemon13 on Jan 31, 2012, 03:56:52 AM
Yes. Yes they are. ;D
I'd say the predators are only "overpowered" in the expanded universe and the second movie (especially the veteran predators). Game-wise I think the balance is very close on a higher level of play...predators might have a slight edge.

newbeing

newbeing

#906
Quote from: magical_boy on Feb 01, 2012, 02:49:00 PM
Quote from: CyberDemon13 on Jan 31, 2012, 03:56:52 AM
Yes. Yes they are. ;D
I'd say the predators are only "overpowered" in the expanded universe and the second movie (especially the veteran predators). Game-wise I think the balance is very close on a higher level of play...predators might have a slight edge.

On PC they patches definitely leveled the playing field a bit, but I do feel some more balancing could have been worked in as there were still too many instances of close quarter plasma blasts, and mine spamming.
I really feel like the mines were the lamest weapon in the game. Not only do they promote camping and spawn kills, but they don't seem like a weapon an honorable hunting race would use.

Aether_Rayne

Aether_Rayne

#907
Predators are overpowered in this game and that's a fact (Well, for X360 and PS3 it is). It doesn't matter if you're an epic Alien against a decent Predator and he kills you 1 time to your every 10. That's a difference in skill and/or connection, and not a difference in character potential. It doesn't matter what your own personal experiences are, it needs to be calculated through numbers, statistics and abilities. 'The best', or in this case, 'most powerful' is calculated by four things. These are Connection, Skill, Species and Map. Though I say personal experience doesn't matter, unless you have access to the hard numbers and statistics, it is the only way to discover them, so I will draw on my own specific experience to demonstrate my point.

Many players regard ch281 AKA CHAKRAMMblade (Or however you spell it) as the best Alien on the PS3 servers, myself included, with the exception of one other named Hameln_liebe_M whom I consider to be a good contender for that title. I, and many others, consider myself to be a fantastic Predator (Though I am far from the best). I played Ch281 1on1 on 3 maps, my host (He challenged me), Predator vs Alien and I doubled his score with no weapons, no glitched heavy spam (like so many "good" players love to use), no fake heavies (despite him using them), and was barely trying. I allowed him to get up from knock-down several times. We played on several maps and it was the same every time, and I was getting really bored. I had no idea who he was at this point, and, getting fed up with him keep readying up as an Alien after hoping he would switch to Pred after the first match, I decided to switch it to Jungle and went to Alien, intending to fight AvA but he switched to Predator just as I hit go. Now, bear in mind that I am host, though his connection is so good that the advantage I had was minimal. He then proceeded to heavy spam me constantly, barely ever needing the light attack unless I managed to get the drop on him and start a heavy which nearly never happened. I could do nothing and truthfully was a little annoyed that he wasn't showing me the same fair courtesy I showed him. I gave up after he was 12-0 up because no matter what I did, I could barely hit him, much less kill him. I sent him a message and said that I was bored and this was pointless unless he was prepared to go Pred. We chatted and then he sent me a message asking to host. We then played 5 or 6 games on his connection, all on Refinery, me as Pred and him as Alien and he did manage to beat me in 2 of them due to stealth and the host advantage lying with him, though it was close and truthfully I was still bored and not trying as hard as I could have been, such as rushing round corners when I'm leading, knowing he was there waiting to ambush me with his OMG GODLY connection that I couldn't counter in time. I let him get back up often too.

CH281 is a nice guy and a godly Alien but the truth is even the BEST Alien in the whole world can not compete with a Predator 1v1 if both are used to the full potential, unless there is a significant connection advantage or the match takes place in the Pyramid, and the latter is not that much of an advantage if the Predator can score the lead and force the Alien to come to him. In the fairest fight I could possible manage with ch281, I was still dominating and one thing is for sure, it was NOT because I was the better player. When we went AvA, 4 matches, 2 hosts a piece I only won one and that was on my host and very, very close. On his hosts he dominated me by alot. Connection > Skill sure, and he had the superior one so he had the advantage, sure, but even if we had even connections (impossible to achieve, but IF) I still would not like my chances against him AvA and would bet my savings on him winning. We did not battle Pred v Pred.

Now, to finally finish my point, if a Pred was used to it's full potential and he was too smart to allow himself to get in to a position where he could be tailed from a wall, all a Pred has to do to kill an Alien everytime without fail is press L1, L1, L1, L1, L1, L1, L1 (in that order :p) as fast as he can and he is guaranteed a kill because even if the first one gets countered with a light, he will be invulnerable to counter a second time due to the glitch. What's more if the Alien goes for the heavy while the Predator is stunned you'd think that the Pred would have to light attack the Alien or it will connect its heavy before the Pred connects his glitched heavy. Well, unless you are suffering from pretty bad lag, you're wrong. That Pred's glitch heavy will be faster than the Alien's heavy every time leaving the Alien with ultimately one option: hit and run. He can't heavy because the Pred's is faster.. He can't light because it won't have any effect other than a trade of a meager quarter-bar of damage for a health-halving strike with stun effects. All he can do is counter and jump away to avoid that glitch heavy. This is before you even start to incorporate the weapons. With the Disk and a keen understanding of the geography of each map, the Predator can know where any player is at any time with the locator function of the Disk. It works at huge distance too. Give me that over seeing through walls any day of the week. The ability to track enemies over vast distances is probably the most useful function of any of the weapons in my opinion. The Mines which net so many players a lot of kills just because they know where to strategically press R2 to lay one. Need I say anything about the caster? The Spear is probably the only weapon that isn't overpowered due to how difficult it is to hit good players that know to stay on the move, and how difficult it is to hit.. well.. anything when you're not the host due to slower ejection and traveling speeds.

Now, 1v1 is very different to an actual group MSTDM or DM and I acknowledge that. Different strengths for the Alien come in to play, and the dynamics and flow of the game work very differently for all species. The Alien has many strengths the Predators do not but the Predators strengths are far more numerous and easier to apply, and ultimately, land more kills with.

Really the only thing the Alien has going for it is the wall-tailing ability which takes quite a bit of skill to use effectively if you aren't in the Pyramid, its ability to escape so quickly on to walls and live to fight another day, and the hiss because it's so damned cute.

Also, I could make a huge case and point for why the Marine is stronger than the Alien too, but instead I'll just say this: The gap is a lot smaller than the AVP comparison, and gets even smaller at higher levels of play, but the Marine controls the melee triangle over an Alien unless the Alien fake heavies him (which personally I never do to any species unless its PredVPred and the guy is good, as I find it unfair). Even the fake-heavy can be predicted and dealt with if you have enough experience and intuition for your opponent's actions. That's short-range advantage AND long-range advantage (due to the non-existence of the Alien's long-range capabilities).

For my personal opinion, I think it's all about how you look at it. I think the problem is not that the Predator is overpowered, but the Alien is underpowered. When developers make a game they have to cater to 2 types of fans: 1. Those that want realism. 2. Those that want a fair, fun, balanced game. Most of the time, these two things contradict one-another and so they try to find a balance between the two as they can't have both. Making the Alien more powerful would have been a positive step towards both realism and balance. With the PC version they made the Predator a lot weaker, that's a step towards balancing but away from realism. Marines should not be able to knock either an Alien or a Predator down. I think that is neither realistic nor a balanced form of play when Marines can take down 2-3 Aliens with just a Shotgun and his Kung-Fu (And yes it is possible, I have done it many times).

My advice: Take the game for what it is, free of expectation of what you think it should be, or how other players should play (Yes I'm looking at you people who bitch about others using the caster) and enjoy it for what it is. It is a GOOD game and though it has its flaws, there's very few games like it and it is a beautiful work of art in its own right. It's not perfect, but nothing is. Strive for excellence, not perfection.

OpenMaw

OpenMaw

#908
Quote from: newbeing on Feb 02, 2012, 03:26:02 PM
Not only do they promote camping and spawn kills, but they don't seem like a weapon an honorable hunting race would use.

To be fair, neither is cloaking yourself and hiding.

Machiko Naguchi

Machiko Naguchi

#909
what do you mean by locator function of the disk?

allicorn

allicorn

#910
Aether wins all the internetz.


Quote from: Machiko Naguchi on Mar 24, 2012, 03:47:42 AM
what do you mean by locator function of the disk?
Eh.. it's hard to explain, but when you've got your disc out and you're facing the direction of another player (whether it's an enemy or a team mate), an outer dashed circle appears around the circle/aiming thing in the center of the screen (wtf is that thing called anyway? lol).


In my opinion, I think predators are overpowered. Way too overpowered. But the fact of the matter is that I freakin' love the game despite that. I play pretty much every day for hours and hours, and I play as an alien 90% of the time. Why? I think they're just awesome. Their agility and speed is unmatched. I can disappear in the blink of an eye (just ask my friends, teehee). I have to get up close and personal with my prey to kill them. No bullshit weapons either - just claws, teeth, and tail! They do lack a long-range attack, but I think the ability to wall-tail kind of makes up for that. I can take out multiple targets if they're in the right spot at the right time on any map. Aliens are also made to swarm, but I am a very independent player and I generally do laps around the map, looking for people to munch on.

But, you can't tell me you haven't ever bitched about being plasma'd in the face at close range or heavy spammed straight to hell by a predator. I bitch about these things because about 98% of the people who play as a predator know that they're overpowered and use that to their advantage to win a match and then talk shit because apparently playing like a cheap bastard makes you a winner. I can get 20+ kills easily as a predator every damn match only using the disc and wristblades, or even JUST my wristblades, but it's not as satisfying as getting that many kills as an alien. Imagine how many kills I can get using the plasma caster, heavy spamming, and basically playing like a cheap bastard. What is the POINT of not even bothering trying to do a fair 1v1? It's never 100% fair because of connection issues and the fact you might have team mates lurking around (and stealing your kill by grabbing me :3), but you know, you could at least try. I respect a player who can stop my heavy attack with a light attack, heavy me back and then light attack me. It gives me a chance to counter that heavy attack or block that last light attack and have a fair try at denying him a kill and killing him instead, but due to lag, he can still kill me if he knows what he's doing. I RESPECT someone who does that. No bullshit weapons, just all wristblades against my claws, tail, and teeth.
Of course, any player who is playing purely just to win doesn't give a shit about playing fair because all they care about is that 10 seconds of glory at the end of each match at the leaderboards. Don't get me wrong, I love winning, but I don't mind losing either.

^____^;;

Insomniac

Insomniac

#911
Quote
(wtf is that thing called anyway? lol).
It's called a reticle.

allicorn

allicorn

#912
Quote from: Insomniac on Mar 26, 2012, 11:12:56 PM
Quote
(wtf is that thing called anyway? lol).
It's called a reticle.
I KNEW it started with a R, but I couldn't remember the actual word. Thanks for clearin' that up. ^.^

spinksy

spinksy

#913
Too many people confuse predators being over powered with connection issues in my opinion.

I admit that the mines are a stupid wepaon that I see LOADS of preds using to get spawn kills - the mines shouldnt be in it full stop. Also the disc would be better if it had a long charge time (that would eliminate spamming)!

Insomniac

Insomniac

#914
Quote from: spinksy on Mar 27, 2012, 05:39:14 PM
Too many people confuse predators being over powered with connection issues in my opinion.

This is very true. I did a test the other day to see If I could work out what makes everyone scream about the predator, and specifically the plasma caster.

To start with, I had the other person host and pick predator, I went with marine. Then with a medium distance between us had him fully charge a locked on plasma caster and I tried to dodge. After about 20 attempts I had dodged only one which hit the wall behind me and knocked me over. Annoyance understood.

I then switched it over, I hosted, again on marine with them on predator and repeated the same process, only this time I was only hit twice. The rest I was easily able to avoid.

Basically, the problems comes down to this - plasma bolts move fast, really fast. So fast infact that on even a reasonably good connection it has already hit you before you see it launch. If you play on a LAN (pings of no more that 4 to any player) you will find the predator a much swishier target.




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