Are the AVP and Original Aliens the same?

[Meathead320]

On the subject of A1 and A2 Aliens; the A2 Aliens sure looked a lot more like the A1 Alien than either are compared to AVP or AVPR.

The lack of a dome in A1 and A2 was the only major difference, there were some other minor ones too, but these all may have simply been camouflage for the ridged looking surfaces surrounding them in the complex, and there are two other big theories on that too.

I completely agree with you on the A1 and A2 are descended from the same derelict genetic stock however.

Again, those difference are less than between them both combined and the AVP type.


Yes, and the AVPR aliens would then be 3rd generation. from the AVP Queen.

Juiced up Queen = G1, PredAlien-Queen G2, AVPR adults = G3. Still growing faster. At this point, "steroids being given to her" on its own is absurd.

I would agree with them having been altered, or accelerated growth at a genetic level, via increasing the amount of tandem repeats in the alien's genetic code, along the lines that would regulate the internal production of steroid hormones.

This would explain the massive size of the Queen, and the fast growth of her offspring, even beyond a tenth generation, as they would continue to pass on that new genetic sequence. That would make sense, and it would have to do with "steroids", but is just more complex than merely "giving her roids".

That being said, the AVP aliens being tampered with genetically to enhance steroid production would increase fertility (the same way taking HCG or SERMs may increase the produciton of androgens/estrogens as well as fertility), but would that genetic tampering also now make them a new subspecies?

Look at tomato plants. If someone selectively breeds a new variety, or makes a genetic alteration to one in any other way, they have made a new sub-species of tomato. Both are still tomatoes, but some will grow faster, and taste different than others due to being of different genetic stock.

[Xenomrph]

The lack of a dome in A1 and A2 was the only major difference, there were some other minor ones too, but these all may have simply been camouflage for the ridged looking surfaces surrounding them in the complex, and there are two other big theories on that too.

There's other differences, too - the head and jaw are shaped differently, the hands and feet are different, as is the tail. It's more than just "they're missing a dome".

I'm not trying to argue for/against the "caste" or "cowl" theory, I'm just pointing out that the differences extend beyond the top of the head.

I would agree with them having been altered, or accelerated growth at a genetic level, via increasing the amount of tandem repeats in the alien's genetic code, along the lines that would regulate the internal production of steroid hormones.

This would explain the massive size of the Queen, and the fast growth of her offspring, even beyond a tenth generation, as they would continue to pass on that new genetic sequence. That would make sense, and it would have to do with "steroids", but is just more complex than merely "giving her roids".

I completely agree with this.

Interestingly, the old Aliens RPG by Leading Edge actually explains the Queen's physical size increase, somewhat. According to the RPG, Queens continue molting and growing throughout their lifespan, and physically increase in size upon doing so. As such, the one we saw in 'AvP' would still be a Queen like the ones we saw in 'Aliens' and 'Alien Resurrection', just older.
Interestingly, this concept also shows up in the 'AvP: Extinction' video game, but it only happens once - the Queen can "evolve" and she becomes bigger and tougher.

would that genetic tampering also now make them a new subspecies?

Eh, I think saying "it's a new sub-species" is a sort of non-issue when we can't definitively say how many "species" of Aliens there are in the first place, or what constitutes a "sub-species". For us to say there's a "sub-species" sort of requires us to say what a "normal" Alien is like, and there's enough differences between the ones in 'Alien' and 'Aliens', and between the ones in 'AvP' and 'AvP:R' (not to mention the comics, video games, etc) that I don't really see the point.
That's just me, I guess.

[Meathead320]

One odd side note of the Queen's size in AVP, when the Queen was built, they initially made the animatronic Queen the same size as the Queen in A2, however, on film, she was only used for "close up" shots, as Anderson got the idea to make her bigger. All wider images that decently give her a sense of scale are actually the cg queen, which was way bigger.



It is true, in AVP extinction the Queen can be molted once, and while the game does not show her actually getting bigger (just lazy programming), it is heavily implied because she almost doubles her hit points.

If Queen do continue to grow, the A2 and AR Queens would have both been relatively small on the Queen scale, as they were comparatively young. Well the A2 one would have kept growing if they do continue growth.

Either way, the AVP Queen did seem bigger than the A2 Queen in any shot that gave her a sense of scale.

Personally I like the original design better, seemed more elegant. High heels vs. T-Rex feet an all.

[Cellien]

I think it's intended that they are to be the same creature, so despite some differences in how the filmmakers handled them, I think they are the same.

[SM]

That's explained in the novelization - the Predators tampered with the Queen's genetics to make her breed faster, so the Predators wouldn't have to sit around for a day or two before they could do their ritual.

Where does it say that?

I wouldn't use that god-awful novel to back anything up anyway.  It says that most of the eggs are incinerated in a furnace in the Queens chamber and there's a "great living tsumani" of Aliens that come to free the Queen.

[Xenomrph]

That's explained in the novelization - the Predators tampered with the Queen's genetics to make her breed faster, so the Predators wouldn't have to sit around for a day or two before they could do their ritual.

Where does it say that?

I'll find it, I seem to recall it getting mentioned early on when the Queen and the captiveegg-laying process gets introduced, but I haven't read the book in years.

[SM]

I'll save you some time and tell you it's not mentioned in that bit of the book.

In fact I very much doubt you'll find it anywhere in that alledged 'book'.

Anderson didn't mention it in the script, nor did he think the fast impregnation was an issue because he thought they'd already done it in Resurrection.  And Cerasini wasn't paying much attention to what he was writing so I doubt he would've addressed it.

The 'Predators f**ked around with the Queen' theory makes sense, but it's hardly an official explanation.

[Xenomrph]

It actually is an official explanation - Anderson mentioned it in an interview following the film's release.

And I re-checked the book, and in the pages when the Queen wakes up they talk about the hoses and electrical wires going into the Queen all over her body - clearly the Predators were doing something to her.

And frankly I don't have a problem with the novelization at all. Paging back through it, it gives a lot of backstory to otherwise minor characters, includes a lot of interesting archaeological stuff that's only briefly touched on in the movie itself, has some interesting side-plots and backstory involving the Piper Maru crew, Lex's father, Weyland's business, the mercenaries, some of the other scientists, and other characters, as well as some interesting speculations on both the Aliens and Predators as creatures, as well as addressing some of the "plot-holes" not addressed in the film (such as why Weyland's team was armed to the teeth), and goes into a lot more detail on what happened at the whaling station in 1904.

You describe the book as if it's some sort of affront to the written word. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I'd go as far as to say that the novelization rises above Paul Anderson's script quite a bit. Not to mention the general reader reviews are quite positive, as well.

[Undeadite]

I will agree that the novelization of AVP is better than the movie, but it does not mention the Predators directly affecting the Queen's hormones. The pipes and such could have been anything from royal jelly to narcotics to make her docile. I remember when Anderson said that, but he NEVER backed it up in any cut of the film. In fact I remember going into the theater hoping to see how they would explain without English that the Predators had juiced the queen, but no such luck there. It was a ploy to cover his ass, and apparently only a few people bought it.

[Xenomrph]

To be fair, like I mentioned earlier, I can't really think of a good and convincing way to film such a thing. I daresay it would surpass Anderson's ability as a scriptwriter or director to convey such a thing, but even it were handed to James Cameron or Ridley Scott I doubt they'd want to tackle conveying Alien biology and how the Predators modified it without any of the characters understanding what's going on. It'd either confuse the shit out of the audience, or the audience would get frustrated because they understand it before the characters do, and the movie would be "wasting" time explaining it for the characters' benefit when the audience probably already gets it.

The main problem is the setting: you've got characters on present day Earth who have no idea what's going on, and the only thing they have to go off of are hieroglyphics on the walls. Even if they translate those, they still don't know what's going on because they don't know what Aliens or Predators are, or what Predators are capable of, or what Alien biology is. I doubt the hieroglyphics would go into details on that, either.

With an AvP movie set in the future, you could easily just have characters who are familiar with the Aliens and know what their life cycle is like, so when they see Aliens being born in a matter of minutes it's very easy for the characters to say "What the f**k? These things take at least a day to grow!" "Those other big motherf**kers must have tampered with them somehow!" and the problem is solved with 2 throw-away lines of dialogue.

[Undeadite]

Oh yes, it is a challenge, but they didnt even try. They could have easily said in the novelization form the Predator's point of view what they did, but didnt. If you are going to go against canon, you better have a reason other than "oh, well, yeah we thought of this but never even implied it".

[Xenomrph]

How am I going against canon?

We've got Aliens that breed fast, we've got a Queen hooked up with tubes and being injected with chemicals (even if we don't know what they do), and we've got a director saying "Predators injected her with chemicals and made her breed fast".

It just doesn't strike me as that much of a leap of logic, and it certainly doesn't contradict anything.

[Undeadite]

Well we know that the first instance of an incubation lasted a long time, Kane was in status for quite some time before even waking up. Aliens seemed to imply that the gestation period was long enough to get Ripley and Newt in cryostasus, but that could have been just Burke's wishful thinking. Also the woman the marines torched in the cocoon looked to have been there a long time due to the state of her skin, clothes, and condition of the humans cocooned beside her. A3 had Ripley impregnated the entire time, and altho there could have been side effects from the cryo process she still showed signs early on (pains and nose bleeds) so who knows if the cryogenics really did anything (and yes I know the crawler had a fairly short gestation time so that is a counter argument I accept for the cryo effects on Ripley). AR was fast, I will give you that, but I didnt like that either. There was no suspence other than that of with Purvis. So, from the first four films the general gestation time seems to be moderately quick with a couple of wild cards. Then AVP comes along and gives the aliens an hour tops to be impregnated, incubate, hatch and grow. That is still relatively shorter than that of the time it took in AR. Yes it was a plot device to get the story going, but the ends did not justify the means because the story still sucked. Then Anderson comes along and gives a reason that was only mentioned a couple times in interviews and never in the film itself. To me that just says he knew he backed himself in a corner by trying to get the action on screen faster, something that has never really worked well for the alien films. Had the predalien been hatched sooner on earth then I would accept his claim, but once again that was a plot device that led to yet another horrible attempt at film making.

[Xenomrph]

Well to be fair, Ripley's Queen possibly took longer because it was a Queen and those might be more complex organisms in the chestburster stage.
Likewise, in 'Alien Resurrection' it was about 24 hours from the time the cryo-hostages were facehugged to when they gave birth. Purvis took longer because he had a thyroid imbalance, it's spelled out in the novelization.

I agree that 'AvP's fast-Aliens was goofy, but I can accept the explanation that the Queen was somehow "modified" to make her breed faster (and therefore the Aliens grew faster). It even makes sense in terms of the plot - do the Predators really want to sit around for a day waiting for Aliens to be born so they can hunt them? If they could get the show rolling faster (albeit a LOT faster) I don't see why they wouldn't.

As for the PredAlien... that could be a by-product of Predator biology. Different hosts might lead to different gestation times. Aside from the PredAlien turning out to be an implied Queen in AvP:R, Aliens might take longer to gestate inside Predators. In 'Alien3', the one inside the dog (or ox) gestated a lot faster than it seemed to inside a human.

As an aside, the recent Aliens novel 'Aliens: No Exit' actually talked about Alien gestation times and how (and why) they sometimes vary between hosts, but I can't remember the details off the top of my head. The general rule of thumb was "24 hours from facehugging to chestbursting" but it could vary due to different factors that the book mentioned and I don't remember.

[Undeadite]

Those are all fine explanations, but not only are they EU, but there is no EU explanation for the growth spurts seen in AvP. Had it been their intention the whole time then it would have been in the novelization, let alone the script. But it wasnt, so I dont buy it. I will chock it up to bad film making, something Anderson should be used to be now.