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Posted by bb-15
 - Apr 18, 2018, 05:18:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 13, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
The novelization is a little contradictory on what Ash knows.  In one passage he says some details are specific, in a different passage he says the life form was 'almost certainly hostile'; which isn't that specific.

Agreed SM.
Here's my interpretation for that.
- Ash as a science officer would try to be as accurate as possible with this explanation.
- What the Space Jockeys found was lethal.
- What the Nostromo crew would find on the moon wasn't completely certain. 
Would that human exploration team run into another unknown creature which was more friendly?
Almost certainly not; still in theory it could happen (by unlikely chance) with a space tug crew wandering around, doing a non-expert investigation, on an unexplored moon/planet with unknown lifeforms.

* More quotes to show the difference between what happened to the Space Jockeys and what might happen to the Nostromo crew. 

* This part of the novel has the bit of speculation; that the crew would find something "almost certainly hostile".

Quote...sneered Ripley, she thought a moment, said; "You've already told us that our purpose in being sent to that world was to investigate a life form almost certainly hostile, and that the company experts knew all along that the transmission was a warning and not a distress signal."

"Yes." Ash replied.
/

- The next part of the novel gives details from the Space Jockey warning about the creatures from the pods being lethal.
(This also gives a glimpse of earlier drafts of the script where the Space Jockeys are not at first carrying Xenomorph eggs on the derelict ship as cargo but find them on the moon/planet itself.)   

QuoteAsh replied..."The signal itself was frighteningly specific, very detailed. The derelict spacecraft we found had landed on the planet apparently in the course of normal exploration. Like Kane they encountered one or more of the alien spoor pods. The transmission did not say whether the explorers had time to determine whether the spoors originated on that particular world or if they had migrated there from somewhere else. Before they all were overcome, they managed to set up the warning to keep the inhabitants of other ships that might consider setting down on that world from suffering the same fate.
(YouTube; "Alien #1 Official Movie Novelization Alan Dean Foster Audiobook": beginning at 7:22:40)

* More thoughts;
- The basic idea of the investigation of the Space Jockeys and their deaths reminds me of the Covenant crew having almost the same fate.

;)
Posted by SM
 - Apr 13, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
The novelization is a little contradictory on what Ash knows.  In one passage he says some details are specific, in a different passage he says the life form was 'almost certainly hostile'; which isn't that specific.
Posted by bb-15
 - Apr 13, 2018, 08:13:38 PM
Quote from: SM on Apr 13, 2018, 09:27:19 AM
All the above hinges on an assumption of the level of Ash's knowledge.

We don't know how much he knows.

* Yes, the question is; What did Ash know?
- From O'Bannon's script and his commentaries and from the novelization influenced by Giler / Hill; imo the viewer can see quite a bit about what each writer wanted in terms of Ash's knowledge.

* In the O'Bannon view, Ash has the absolute minimum knowledge until he encounters it.
* In the Giler / Hill view (as reflected in the novelization) Ash knows plenty about the company's plans and the creature before getting on the Nostromo as I listed in my previous post.

- I'll add that Ripley's theory of the company's elaborate plan to get the creature past customs (quoted in my earlier post), was confirmed by Ash in the novel, again supporting his knowledge of the entire company plan.
From the novel's sequence (partly quoted in my previous post) of the discussion between Ash and the crew;

QuoteAsh explained with cold logic; "Company policy required your unknowing cooperation. What Ripley said about your honest ignorance fooling customs was quite correct."

- Imo the audience has choices to make depending on which writer's slant the viewer wants to accept about Ash;
- Minimal knowledge (O'Bannon).
- Extensive knowledge (Giler / Hill).

* Bottom line; I'm fine with viewers of "Alien" who lean towards Ash having minimal knowledge.
- There are different valid ways to interpret "Alien".   

;)
Posted by David Weyland
 - Apr 13, 2018, 05:41:37 PM
I think David will prove to have a direct influence on Ash
Posted by SM
 - Apr 13, 2018, 09:27:19 AM
All the above hinges on an assumption of the level of Ash's knowledge.

We don't know how much he knows. 
Posted by bb-15
 - Apr 13, 2018, 08:46:49 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2018, 08:25:54 PM
QuoteIt's my film theory (since I saw the film in 1979) that Ash did know there was a parasite inside of Kane.

Personally, I'll take the deleted scene where they notice a stain on Kane's lung that the autodoc scanner can't penetrate over a theory.

I decided to come back to this topic not to argue that I am right.
- Instead I can now see that there are two main interpretations of "Alien" based on which writer's version the viewer chooses to go along with.
- And both views are valid imo.

* Just as with "Blade Runner" where there is the writer's view and Ridley's explanation;
- With "Alien" there is the Dan O'Brannon version/view and the David Giler/Walter Hill version/view.
*** With "Alien" a person can lean towards O'Bannon's POV.
And I'm most willing to agree to disagree about that.

- In the 2003 "Alien" commentary (of the Ash attack on Ripley sequence), O'Bannon states his hate for the subplot of Ash being a company spy.
* Any viewer who minimizes Ash's prior knowledge of the Xenomorph in the film is closer to O'Bannon's view.
- The deleted scene with the stain on the scanner comes from the O'Bannon "Starbeast" script. Of course in that version Roby/(Ash) is not a company spy and would not know about the danger of this alien parasite and would be completely puzzled about what is happening with Broussard's/(Kane's) lungs. 

* But since I lean towards the Giler/Hill version, even with just the film and Special Order 937, Ash knows quite a bit about what is coming and what's going on.   
With Ash manipulating the situation, such as breaking quarantine, using the slant from the Giler/Hill view, Ash's role in the entire movie changes from clueless about the creature to knowing that the creature is a dangerous parasite to Kane's body while the android lets things happen.

* A source outside of canon, a deleted scene, was brought up which supports the O'Bannon view of the film;
- I'll use another outside of canon source; quotes from the "Alien" novel published in 1979.
- The book is fully on the side of Giler/Hill's view of "Alien".

* From the novel; 
1. The company knew about the transmission before the Nostromo arrived at LV-426.
2. As explained by Ash, from the transmission the company knew about the creature and that it would be dangerous.
3. Bringing a dangerous alien life form to human settled planets and earth is strictly prohibited.
This idea would be used later by Cameron for "Aliens". 
- This is why the Nostromo was chosen to deal with the creature so it would look like the Xenomorph was brought back to earth by accident.
4. Ash knows the creature is a parasite.
5. Ash doesn't care much about being a good science officer or even a good spy. He's detached from that, only being loyal to discovering the "truth" as he puts it.
He's quite a bit like David from "Covenant".

QuoteShe (Ripley) glanced up at Lambert; "Who assigns personnel to the ships?... And who would be the only entity capable of secretly slipping a robot on board, for whatever purpose?"

Lambert no longer looked confused; "The company."

"Sure." Ripley smiled humorlessly. "The company's drone probes must have picked up the transmission from the derelict. The Nostromo happened to be the next company vessel scheduled to pass through this spacial quadrant. They put Ash on board to monitor things for them..."

... Ash reacted with sufficient speed to show that his cognitive circuits were indeed intact.
"In essence my orders were as follows... I was directed to reroute in the Nostromo. Or make sure that this crew rerouted it from its assigned course so that it would pick up the signal. Program Mother to bring you out of hypersleep and program her memory to feed you the story about the emergency call. Company specialists already knew that the transmission was a warning and not a distress signal... At the source of the signal," Ash continued; "we were to investigate a life form, almost certainly hostile, according to what the company experts distilled from the transmission, and bring it back for observation and company evaluation of any potential commercial applications. Using discretion of course."

"Of course." agreed Ripley, mimicking the machine's indifferent tone. "That explains a lot about why we were chosen, beyond the expensive sending of valuable exploration team in first.
She looked coldly pleased at having traced the reasoning behind Ash's words.
"Importation to any inhabited world, let alone earth, of a dangerous alien life form is strictly prohibited. By making it look like we simple tug jockeys had accidentally stumbled on to it, The company had a way of seeing it arrive at earth unintentionally. While we maybe got ourselves thrown in jail, something would have to be done with the creature. Naturally company specialists would magnanimously be standing ready to take this dangerous arrival off of the hands of the customs officers. With a few judicious bribes pre-paid just to smooth transition..."

(Ash) "How can you not admire the simple symmetry it presents. An interspecies parasite capable of preying on any life form that breathes..."

(Ash) "I am loyal only to discovering the truth. Scientific truth..."

"Alien" (A Novel by Alan Dean Foster) p. 261 (released March 1979)
(YouTube; "Alien #1 Official Movie Novelization Alan Dean Foster Audiobook": beginning at 7:16:23 & 7:19:36)
Posted by David Weyland
 - Mar 07, 2018, 11:43:25 PM
Appreciate the love and effort put into fancuts but personally I prefer when the movies cores are respected; not mixed & cut but to just blend the relevant deleted scenes/extras in of which both films have a fine side platter of. If you add the David&Weyland scene into Prom' does that mean it wouldn't be in your AC cut if you made one?
Workprint & the Evanus Extended AC edit are the best at the moment imho coz it just fleshes out & keeps the feel of the Directors vision
Sure there's a second that can be snipped off, spliced in here & there but I'd at least wait until the prequels story arc is complete before condensing the films as I've seen with other fun but undefinitive versions
Posted by NetworkATTH
 - Mar 07, 2018, 10:49:40 PM
Quote from: David Weyland on Mar 05, 2018, 05:26:52 PM
The best fancut of Prometheus is the 'Workprint' version
Link: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57480.0

I made a hybrid of the two. The ending is the workprint's. Although I shifted the Deacon birth before they escaped to add some ambiguity if it got on the ship and motivated David somehow. It seems thematically appropriate anyways for some ambiguity there like the script had.

Kept most of A9's edits intact as it felt more cohesive. Except added Shaw's dreams. I also did foley to make the deaths more visceral.

The introduction goes Ted Talk with Weyland —-> Weyland and David from Alien Covenant —-> Shaw discovering Cave —> David onboard the Prometheus

It's A9's with some additions I thought necessary. It's still rough. It fits a lot better though by the end and you understand just how exhausted Shaw must have been and Weyland's motivations being more clear
Posted by David Weyland
 - Mar 05, 2018, 05:26:52 PM
The best fancut of Prometheus is the 'Workprint' version
Link: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57480.0
Posted by NetworkATTH
 - Mar 05, 2018, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Mar 05, 2018, 03:41:01 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 05, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
Just watch A9's edit of it (and maybe add parts you liked that he removed if you have the capability to do that).

Why subject yourself to the normal cut.

I wouldn't even know where to view it.
hush hush ;)

Spoiler
Posted by Local Trouble
 - Mar 05, 2018, 03:41:01 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 05, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
Just watch A9's edit of it (and maybe add parts you liked that he removed if you have the capability to do that).

Why subject yourself to the normal cut.

I wouldn't even know where to view it.
Posted by NetworkATTH
 - Mar 05, 2018, 03:00:07 PM
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Mar 05, 2018, 02:57:05 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 05, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
Just watch A9's edit of it (and maybe add parts you liked that he removed if you have the capability to do that).

Why subject yourself to the normal cut.

This. I loved how he/she almost completely got rid of those dinguses and you barely noticed a difference in the narrative. Hell, if anything it only improved the movie.

It is absolutely amazing how terrible these prequel movies are edited. By themselves they can probably be edited down fairly well, maybe some additional footage shot after the fact. But nope. We have these two men smoking weed in the land of the lost. It's absolutely astonishing how much character development was deleted and how much fluff was kept. I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Posted by MU-TH-UR 6000
 - Mar 05, 2018, 02:57:05 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 05, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
Just watch A9's edit of it (and maybe add parts you liked that he removed if you have the capability to do that).

Why subject yourself to the normal cut.

This. I loved how he/she almost completely got rid of those dinguses and you barely noticed a difference in the narrative. Hell, if anything it only improved the movie.
Posted by NetworkATTH
 - Mar 05, 2018, 02:42:44 PM
Just watch A9's edit of it (and maybe add parts you liked that he removed if you have the capability to do that).

Why subject yourself to the normal cut.
Posted by Local Trouble
 - Mar 05, 2018, 02:25:54 PM
Can we all finally agree that Fifield is the worst human being in the history of science fiction?
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