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Predator: Incursion Novel Details

Last year we broke the news of an upcoming Aliens vs. Predator trilogy from Titan Books. All three novels will be written by Tim Lebbon, the author of Alien: Out of the Shadows. Details of the novel have slowly been trickling out (which you can read through on our forums) but now we have the full synopsis:

“The first in an epic trilogy crossing between Predator, Alien, and AVP! When huge Predator spacecraft begin entering human space in alarming numbers, the Colonial Marines assume an invasion and launch a full military response. Then they learn that the Predators are fleeing an invading force–an army of Xenomorphs! Someone has learned how to weaponize the Aliens, and their trajectory through Predator space has placed them on a path to Earth. Beginning an epic three-book space war that will include:Predator: Incursion; Alien: Invasion; Alien vs. Predator: Armageddon.”

300315_04 Predator: Incursion Novel Details

This information comes curtsey of Amazon (thanks to felix for the tip) and the cover from Xenopedia. According to Amazon the novel is due out September 2015. We also know that Tim Lebbon had to go back to make some changes in light of the announcement of Neill Blomkamp’s Alien 5.



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  1. Ultramorph
    The summary over on Amazon has been changed slightly, I think to be less spoilerific. It now omits any reference to the xenos being controlled.

    Quote
    The first in an epic trilogy crossing between Predator, Alien, and AVP! When Predator spacecraft begin entering human space in alarming numbers, headed toward Earth, the Colonial Marines assume it's an invasion and launch a full military response. Then when they discover the presence of Xenomorphs, they realize the threat is more catastrophic than anything they could have imagined! Beginning an epic three-book space war that will include: Predator: Incursion; Alien: Invasion; Alien vs. Predator: Armageddon.

    http://www.amazon.com/Predator-Incursion-Rage-War-1/dp/1783296240/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428340711&sr=8-1&keywords=rage+war+lebbon
  2. The Alien Predator
    I agree with you Perfect-Organism that there doesn't need to be any conflict between AvP canons. I also like the idea of everything being in one continuity and like Predxeno, I try to put things together and for me, what doesn't make sense, I only slightly change it in my headcanon.

    I treat some of these comics, novels and movies as "reports" of these incidents, and like with reports, there can be multiple reports and there can always be an error or two as nobody remembers events too perfectly.

    Anyway, I see you aren't a Predator fan and that's absolutely fine. I am curious about what it is about them you don't find appealing anymore. You did mention that the thought of an entire race being obsessed in hunting was ridiculous, however, to me that is what makes them absolutely ruthless as a race.

    To me, Predators are technological and sapient, but in no way would I class them as "civilized". I don't even see them as having Predator lawyers, accountants, bankers etc as funny as those examples you listed were to picture in my head. :D

    But from the cities we saw in AvP-R and AVP2010 game (although that was more of an abandoned ruin) they seem to have a vastly different society to ours, one based more on rituals and strict clan rules. One fanfiction I read long ago mentioned how Predators prefer to build things by hand and to me, that would make them rather unique as opposed to us who are using more robots in factories. Obviously about their ships some things could be automated while the rest could be done by Predators. They are a very physically powerful race so building by hand does not seem out of the ordinary.

    As for their currency, I like the idea of it being status based. I know some fans here are against "honour", but to me, Predator honour is based more on how "honourable" your clan deems your actions to be and not on what human opinions on honour are. For example, it's based more on being a badass and making something harder for yourself. You don't really have to disarm yourself to fight a Xenomorph Queen, nothing stops you from blasting her head apart with a charged plasma caster. Buuut... females smile upon the hunter who chucks his caster away and breaks that Queen's neck with his bare hands.

    And such deeds bring respect which helps you rise among your clan and gives access to better living quarters and technology. Falling down the ranks means you lose such things just like you would in human society if you were to go bankrupt.

    Since at the age of 100, it is implied that they are merely adolescents, then it is of no surprise that they may spend the earlier ages being taught by their parents or clan how to fight as well as about their technology. I think most Predators actually KNOW how to build their own masks and customize them. How many humans know how their smartphone works and would they be able to build it from scratch? Just a little hypothetical question. I would love to see this being explored about the Predators. They do seem very intelligent despite their savage brutality and strict ritualism but like I mentioned earlier, in no way are they by any means "civilized" in terms of behaviour.

    And this is why I find them so appealing, there is something about a race that just doesn't give a damn and goes out there to hunt other sapients that is so appealing. I don't see Predators as allying with anything either, they seem way too isolationist for that.

    The RTS game AvP Extinction gives some really good scraps on their society including their clan laws and their ruling council the "Council of Ancients" that are over 1,000 year old individuals who govern other clans which are in turn lead by Elders.

    I am gonna leave you guys with this quote from a Predator in the AvP2010 game manual, what do you guys think of it and I hope Tim Lebbon explores this too:

    "We are old, my brother. Our race is few and scattered. Our ancestry lost to myth. The humans are still children, creatures of desire and hubris, with no comprehension of the long hunt. Still, they make good sport. They have discovered a trophy long locked away. They must not be allowed to find the crucible that spawned our most respected prey. If they succeed, all life will succumb to the crawling dark...".

    Speaking of AvP2010, I remember the Predator telling me to "breach their primitive security systems" while in the lab, I love how even the year 2209 human technology is "primitive" to these guys. Plus apparently they consider the marine war tactics to be "juvenile" according to Wikipedia but I couldn't find that during the game.

    I wonder how they will compare technologically to 25th/26th century humanity. One thing I love doing so much in this franchise is comparing the two races tech wise. And now with the addition of more races, it's becoming even more fun to add in other contenders. To me, Predators are definitely "up there" in the list of advancements while humans could be mid-tier.
  3. Perfect-Organism
    All good points.  I am all for the multi-canon idea, but I don't see a point for multi AVP canons.  My reasoning for that is that there doesn't need to be any conflicts between 1 AVP story and the next.  But then again I would have never expected to see Predators fighting Engineers a la FaS.  So whatevers I guess.  As long as the main Alien movie canon has Engineers but no predators in it, I'm cool with that.  I just don't get the appeal of the Predators anymore.  I think James' and Ridley's comments as well as AVPR ruined them for me.
  4. RakaiThwei
    I've been wanting to address some points as last night I couldn't sleep and read them more on my phone. So if I seem irritable, please understand but I've been wanting to address some things which were mentioned.

    I quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice.

    I don't mind the Engineers creating many life forms, but I don't think they should be responsible for creating ALL life. This also includes the Predators, and I will touch up on that later. But as I said, I don't mind the Engineers creating some life in the universe. I also don't mind them being so advanced they posses power other races don't.

    I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

    I don't mind the Engineers creating the Xenomorph. It's something we've long speculated for over twenty years, so that's nothing really new. What I don't like is how it's being handled. The Aliens are completely second flute now, and Fire and Stone sort of shows that-- especially how one Engineer made HILLS of Xenomorph corpses, with his bare hands. I'm not as much as a fan of Alien as I am with Predator, but when the original antagonist of the Alien franchise is made second flute.. Well.. it dethrones the Aliens. It's all about execution and I don't like the way they're executing things.

    I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

    This. This is something which I've been trying to say and you've addressed it on both sides. I am all about variety, let there be variety. Life can happen naturally and artificially. The universe is a big place so why CAN'T life happen without the Engineers? Surely they haven't covered the entire universe and charted it. I don't mind if the Engineers created some life but I would mind it if they created ALL life, especially with the Predators.

    For them to really create all life in the universe would further make them and cement them as Galactic Overlords and that's just something I would find very boring and an excuse to put the Engineers on a higher pedestal. Leave some ambiguity. Keep some mystery. I don't want to find out that life in the Alien-Predator universe wouldn't have occurred without the Engineers just because they bored and decide to make new toys.

    The Engineers are very powerful as it is, but the Alien-Predator universe isn't Star Wars/Star Trek and doesn't need Galactic Overlords.

    And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

    What's wrong with wanting Predators to remain special and unique? I mean I do understand what you are trying to say in that there is a sense of irony in that the Engineer's creations are trying to kill their own creators but going back to your own doubts, I want to keep variety. Predators should be a part of that variety along with a few other species out there. I mean isn't it enough that Humans and Xenomorphs are results of Engineers being bored and playing with their toys?

    As I said, if all life in the Alien-Predator universe was created by the Engineers who more or less are creations themselves by some higher power as hinted by Ridley Scott... then life couldn't, wouldn't have happened on it's own and I just find that to be very, very boring. Nothing would be unique, the Engineers would be overlords, Aliens would be second flute and reduced to genetic screw ups, and Predators would be no different from Humans, Xenomorphs and every other life form out there.

    Engineers can be responsible for life, just not ALL life. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Hmm, this would only really interest me if it was canon with the upcoming Alien 5 and Prometheus 2.  But the aforementioned already have ruled out the AVP films so I can't see them reinstating the Predators back into the Alien universe which tells me that this may be in conflict with the new films which tells me it may not be canon.  Otherwise, we will have multiple AVP Galaxies.  I can understand separate canons for cross-overs like AVP, but why have multiple AVP canons?  Man, I dunno...

    Assuming if Blomkamp's Alien movie is ignoring Alien 3 and Resurrection, but not retconning them then this may hint that there maybe an Alien-Predator multiverse. I've got an entire thread about that, though most of it it's thirty pages of debating between myself and Xenomrph, but it discusses on whether or not there is or should be an Alien-Predator multiverse. I would be absolutely thrilled if Blomkamp's movie is an alternate timeline/universe.. That's all I have looking forward to this movie, because it'd establish we have a multiverse.

    I am all for multiple AvP canons. Everything would have a place. Fans would be able to pick and follow what they want, and canon nazi's wouldn't say boo about it because it's just different canons. No one would be excluded, no one would be wrong. I've made mentions to a certain Japanese franchise which has eight, and as of April 1st 2015, nine different canons. And that franchise gets along just fine, so why can't Alien-Predator?
  5. Perfect-Organism
    Hmm, this would only really interest me if it was canon with the upcoming Alien 5 and Prometheus 2.  But the aforementioned already have ruled out the AVP films so I can't see them reinstating the Predators back into the Alien universe which tells me that this may be in conflict with the new films which tells me it may not be canon.  Otherwise, we will have multiple AVP Galaxies.  I can understand separate canons for cross-overs like AVP, but why have multiple AVP canons?  Man, I dunno...
  6. The Alien Predator
    That would make some sense, Corporal.

    The Out of the Shadows and Sea of Sorrows novels show that they tried collecting eggs and breeding aliens, There's some juxtaposition going on there. So it won't be surprised if the new wave of aliens is the folly of their mad science. People like Decker might first point fingers at Weyland-Yutani due to them acquiring a live drone, and a queen Facehugger as well as a normal one if I remember correctly, with the queen one implied to contain two embryos.

    I first originally thought that Predator: Incursion would be about Predators discovering Oomans having acquired their favoured prey and they arrive for a glorious hunt. However, this new plot has really piqued my interest.

    Speaking of these other aliens and Predators, I wonder how "much" the other races know about the Predators. Humanity (at least the government and higher ups) tend to know quite a bit about the Preds, Elden seemed to imply that he had no clue what the Predators even were in their first encounter and I kinda liked this idea that Engineers and Predators would know very little about eachother. But alas, that was Elden... we don't know what the REAL Engineer was saying.

    And speaking of knowledge about Predators, do you guys think that by the late 25th to early 26th centuries, Xenomorphs and Predators are public knowledge? I just remembered that Judge Dredd crossover where the Predator's hunt is publicly described on Mega City One's News channel. It would be neat to explore human thoughts on the Predators and knowing Tim, it is high he would explore such details. I hope to see Predator opinions on humans as well especially if there are possible (if fragile) alliances to overcome a common foe. As well as Pred interactions with Arcturians and Dog-Aliens if they show up.
  7. The Alien Predator
    Great post, Hicks.

    And that would be ironic if Predators were made by Engineers yet go and hunt them as it reminds us of the "creators being destroyed by their creation" trope.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)


    I see the Engineers as extremely powerful and advanced, but they would have a species wide ego. They would think they own everything yet they don't really as many of their creations contribute to their own downfall.

    And Tim's reply sounds really hopeful. It would be interesting if the Dog-Aliens appear... what type of role do you think they would play, Corporal?
  8. HuDaFuK
    I quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice. To actually create a lifeform for the intention of using as a weapon. I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

    I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

    And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

    But again - I'm not sure I like the idea of an entire Engineer created universe as that dilutes the possible stories unless we go extra-galactic.

    We park our cars in the same garage.
  9. Corporal Hicks
    I quite like the idea of the Engineers being behind the creation of a multitude of lifeforms. I especially like the idea they created the Aliens because that gives the Engineers power. Real power. And malice. To actually create a lifeform for the intention of using as a weapon. I don't think it takes away anything from the Aliens - they still have their own series. It just makes the possibilities for Prometheus even greater. If handled properly, anyway. I still think Prometheus as we got it was a clusterf**k.

    I'm not sure if I like them being responsible for all life though. It takes away variety. But on the flipside of that, the idea that our entire galaxy is their playground could also go well towards making the Engineer even more powerful.

    And whilst I know you want your Predators to remain special and unique, it lends more power and impact to the Predators and Ahab if they are Engineer creations and they go out and hunt down their own creators. I kind of like that.

    But again - I'm not sure I like the idea of an entire Engineer created galaxy as that dilutes the possible stories unless we go extra-galactic.
  10. Perfect-Organism
    My opinions on Predators are very loose.  I'm not a big fan of Predators and I only kind of got into them through the original AVP series.  I respect that there are hard-core Predator fans, and I would not want their world over-turned too much.  Personally, I agree that Predators should steer clear of Engineers.  Those worlds don't need to intersect.  It was silly to see that in comics and would be 10 times sillier on the big screen.

    I'm just sort of postulating about Predators and their gender.  I'm not really interested in them enough to get too deep into their motivations, biology, sociology and what not.  The idea that a whole race is all about hunting and war seems a bit ridiculous to me, but I can see that it makes no sense to go beyond that really.  Though I guess one could get a chortle out of thinking that somewhere out there in the Predator universe, there must be Predators sitting around somewhere crunching taxes for clients, and Predator cab drivers, and Predator doctors, and Predator poets, musicians, artists, etc.  You get the point.  It's the answer to a question nobody is asking...

    P.S. Predator plumbers lol!
  11. RakaiThwei
    However, I am with Rakai'Thwei on Predators being a natural evolution.

    This is something which I would like to be more or less untouched. I am a firm believer that the Predators are something of a result of natural evolution. Just leave them alone. I don't need to know if they are a creation of the Engineers and I hope that is something which is never answered. I'd like to think that the Predators are actually their own thing.

    I mean if that is something answered and they are made out to be creations of the Engineers, I just feel it takes something unique away from them. Some life is artificially made, some life can be natural. I'd prefer if Predators are natural occurring creatures, or like to think that and would really not like to see that touched.

    Sure, Predator Homeworld suggested the idea that Predators were descended from an ancestral race which was displaced onto another world to reach their evolutionary apex but that was just that, an idea, a theory. Nothing concrete. Leave some ambiguity.

    I hope the new novel explores Predator interactions with other aliens.

    I don't mind it if Predators have interacted with other aliens. I would've thought that Predator 2, AVP-R and the old EU material suggested that, even if lightly touched upon. We don't know if the creatures which were shown in the trophy cases were sentient, and I don't think we need to know that. They're a Hunter/Warrior race that are all about remaining hidden from their prey. At best, Predators are going to have an antagonistic and hidden presence in regards to other alien races.

    I get the feeling that some people want to go a Star Wars/Star Trek route with the Predators as far as interacting with other alien races. Aside from a Hunter-Prey relationship, do we really need to know if Predators establish diplomatic relationships with other races, or established wars with other races? The latter... I'm open to.. DEPENDING on the execution.

    If in the end, Predators turn out to be a creation of the Space Jockeys, I wouldn't really be too bothered by it.

    I'm not too keen on this idea. My problem with Fire and Stone's aspect was that it was Prometheus centric and now Prometheus is treading on Predator territory, which is something where I feel... doesn't belong. Prometheus has no place in Predator, and Predator has no place in Prometheus. Completely different movies, one is a very sophisticated movie which is supposed to have deep metaphorical philosophical bull and the other was an 80's action B-movie flick (I'm a fan of Predator but damn it, I ain't gonna pretend that it's something it isn't-- and that's not counting the old EU).

    I get the feeling that the Engineers are being presented as these Galactic Overlords that rule over all. And I don't really like that direction and execution. If you ask me, this direction and execution sort of dethroned the Alien as the main antagonist and more or less reduced them to something second flute-- made them more or less a minion archetype. Hey, if people complained about ALIENS turning the creature into a cannon fodder space bug, then some folks are gonna complain how Prometheus made them out to be a cannon fodder space bug which was a by-product f**k up.

    I'd hate to see the Predators be reduced to third flute and made them out to be just creations of an over-hyped, over glorified, new Galactic Overlord race.
  12. The Alien Predator
    I remember seeing some concept sculpture for a scene that never made it into the AVP film. It was about Predators rising out of some stasis inducing goo in the nude. The "stuff" looked alien enough but it wasn't in the mouth.

    But that is concept material. Who knows what official material would say. Some EU states there are females and they have breasts while other material states they are hermaphrodites.

    The upcoming tabletop game has female pred units so it appears that Fox too prefers a gendered Predator race. South China Sea also apparently mentions females.
  13. Perfect-Organism
    I've thought about the Predators' relationship with the Engineers in the past as well.  I'm not sure how their reproduction has ever been (if at all) covered in any of the EU out there.  Ever since the Predalien meets pregnant woman scene in AVP Requiem, it occurred to me that the Predators have (get this) oral reproductive organs.  That reproductive system may have been something that the Predalien inherited from the Predators.

    I think there was also a somewhat crude rereference to this in Predator 2 now that I think about it...



    Anyway, that jives with what I have said earlier.  The predators may be yet another Engineer experiment in humanoid reproduction.  I know that the Engineers most likely did not exist yet in anyone's mind (who knows?) at the time of AVP: Requiem, but in hindsight, it is a good reason for why the Predators and Aliens were genetically compatible..

    Does anyone know if Predator reproduction was ever addressed?
  14. Ultramorph
    I agree, it's defintely possible that the Arcturians were made by the Engineers. The recent FaS comics showed that the Engineers have created other, vaguely humanoid species, like the four-armed alien that Ahab fights.
  15. The Alien Predator
    You got some good points there. They certainly seem reclusive as they don't appear nor are mentioned outside of Aliens.

    This is what makes this universe quite different from most sci fi, alien life isn't all open to contact. It's not a very united galaxy. Every race for itself.

    I hope the new novel explores Predator interactions with other aliens. I haven't read it, but from what I heard, South China Sea honestly does it best. Mentioning past hunts and other alien animals and sapients. Someone on this forum mentioned how the Predator in SCS got his hoverboard from a fungoid alien, I would love to hear what the novel explains about this creature if anyone would like to share that, I would appreciate it. I am curious about the sentence or paragraph in the novel that describes that part.

    And good point Perfect-Organism, on them possibly being made by Engineers. Like I said earlier, the Engineers are a great way of introducing new races. However, I am with Rakai'Thwei on Predators being a natural evolution. Perhaps their very humanoid shape could be an example of "convergent evolution" where life completely isolated just so happens to evolve similarly to another lifeform. My reasoning for this is that Predator as a franchise was not originally part of the Alien franchise so in a sense it's symbolic to keep Predators as their own thing even in the Alien universe. Arcturians however originated within the Alien franchise so they can be an Engineer creation.

    If in the end, Predators turn out to be a creation of the Space Jockeys, I wouldn't really be too bothered by it.
  16. Perfect-Organism
    I'm not sure how I picture the Arcturians. Not quite like Greys, but you're right, they must have something vaguely similar to human physiology for them to be sexually desirable to humans. I imagine they're probably reclusive, me don't interact too much with humans. I think they're probably slightly above our tech level, but haven't shared much of it with us.

    Hence why I've often suggested in older posts that Arcturians are made by Engineers.  If they are basically human-like then it stands to reason.  If they are indeed similar to us but different sexually, then it may make sense that the Engineers are conducting experiments in what is the most "elegant" form of reproduction.  Clearly the method shown at the beginning of Prometheus involved too much sacrifice.  I suspect that the human method of reproduction left the Engineers vastly disappointed in humans.  They may have ultimately found the idea of reproduction without sacrifice to be inconsistent with their hopes for what we should become.  It may be why they hate us...
  17. Ultramorph
    I'm not sure how I picture the Arcturians. Not quite like Greys, but you're right, they must have something vaguely similar to human physiology for them to be sexually desirable to humans. I imagine they're probably reclusive, me don't interact too much with humans. I think they're probably slightly above our tech level, but haven't shared much of it with us.
  18. The Alien Predator
    I personally liked Decker, but yeah, there is room for improvement.

    Jim Hooper from Out of the Shadows was a really interesting and fleshed out character, so Tim Lebbon seems to know what he is doing. In all honesty, while I enjoyed all three novels, the one written by Lebbon seems to be the most immersive and well written for me. I literally couldn't stop reading it and finished it in less than a week.

    But the other two, I took it slowly. So I am quite glad that it's him who is writing the new books.

    I wonder how the Predators will view the humans in this century. Some old novels apparently say that Predators considered humans sometimes to be too dangerous to hunt so they avoided some of our core systems including Earth. I wonder what this new novel will set up. Another thing that excites me is the human "military response" to the Predator ships arriving, we might see some space battles! I wonder how Marine ships evolved in this century.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    It wouldn't surprise me if by this century, humans do become very dangerous so Predators would need to resort to their more powerful arsenal. Imagine if we see similar weapons from the RTS game AvP Extinction pop up here, or Tim could throw in some new high end gear that we've never seen before.

    Also, Ultramorph, seeing as how you are an Arcturian enthusiast like myself, how do you imagine the Arcturians to be like? In terms of appearance and culture. When I search for "Arcturian" on Google images, I get "Grey Alien" type of results. I kinda imagine them to look a bit similar to Greys, bald and humanoid but not as small and skinny. In a way, I picture them as similar to humans but a bit alien which could explain the difficulty in determining their genders. I also imagine their technology level to be very close to ours, maybe a bit advanced but who knows. Some of the impressive tech from Aliens may have been given to us from our "Arcturian Trading Partners". Sea of Sorrows does establish that upon making contact with Arcturians (and learning of other sapient life) corporations such as W-Y boosted their technological progress by a significant margin.

    You can really tell by the way things look in Alien and Aliens, sure a lot could happen in a few decades, but limited trading with other benign civilizations shouldn't be ruled out.
  19. Ultramorph
    Glad to see someone as excited as I am!

    I too hope we get some 25th/26th century tech and more alien species. Hopefully Lebbon writes Decker well. He didn't do much for me in Sea of Sorrows.
  20. The Alien Predator
    I'm curious to see how much Rage Wars changes the status quo of the universe. It could be bigger than Earth War in that regard.

    Me too!

    I decided to give the novels a try so I bought the new Alien trilogy and it has absolutely got me hooked. I loved how it explored human society a bit more in the way that films and games could not. Such as how Out of the Shadows mentioned humanity's excitement in finding simple life on one of Saturn's moons I believe it was. As well as exploring the dangers of space travel, mentioning how astronauts get trapped in space due to a hull breach and such. These tiny details really enrich the setting for me.

    Then I also enjoyed how Sea of Sorrows established how the Arcturians are aliens (I always suspected that) and like you, Ultramorph, I am uber-excited to see more of the Arcturians. As much as I loved the Predators, this setting does get a bit stagnant if Oomans are the only sapient race they hunt. But thanks to the Engineers, this has opened a whole new window of races to show up.

    I liked the Tetramands that Ahab faced in one of the Fire and Stone issues  ;D http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ben10fanfiction/images/1/1f/200px-Wikia_Fourarms_UA.png/revision/latest?cb=20110506130804


    I noticed some people were against the addition of other races in the series, but let's face it... there have ALWAYS been a few others out there even in the old EU.

    - Reapers "Aliens: Reapers"

    - Suom's tribe in "Aliens: Alien"

    - That one alien whose ship crashed on Earth in the 50's "Alien: Earth Angel" or something like that.

    - That giant lizard grilling facehuggers for a meal (not sure of the comic name) and while this may make the Xenomorph feel less threatening (as Reapers also ate facehuggers and ovomorphs) it goes to show that out there in the cosmos, there are bigger predators.


    But what separates this universe from the typical Star Trek/Star Wars/Mass Effect trope is that while there are other races out there, human contact with them is rather limited. Heck, we had FAR more contact with the Predators than we seem to have had with any other race.


    I did like Alan Decker's response to the W-Y woman when she mentioned a derelict Dog-Alien craft and ruins, he was all "so? We encountered loads of races" implying that by the 2497's, humanity has met or found quite a handful.

    Now what I am really curious about are two things:

    1: Would the Predators have their own "classification" like the Xenomorphs do? (Xenomorphs XX121)

    2: When exactly will the Rage War be set? Do you guys think it will be the early 2500s? This is what I loved about Sea of Sorrows, I remembered the old SNES AVP game set during 2493 and wished to see more of that world and this novel granted my wish. Another game "Predator: Last of His Clan" is set during 2593 (the furthest we seem to have gone in the AVP timeline) and Rage War may explore the early moments of that century.


    Anyway, sorry for my long post. I am really excited for the upcoming series and had a lot to say. I hope it does quite well for the franchise.
  21. Corporal Hicks
    Well, they are an official source. Not like they're fanon or anything. I just thought they'd be worth something bringing up, even if they are questionable.

    They're only figures. It's not like they're fully fledged stories. Granted, the content has to be approved by Fox but it's still only a few paragraphs to sell a figure. Nothing more.

    I thought that the Wolf and Dog analogy served fine enough in the context of the film in what he was trying to get across. If anything, I thought he was right on the money. Evolution has a weird way of playing things out, the slightest change in an environment could cause an entire species to choose to either adapt or go extinct. Sometimes, evolution results in enough changes to where a genus could result in similar but different species.

    And I am a Hispanic with thick, straight hair and dark skin and brown eyes. Aside form the differences between myself, you and the friend from work you bring up, we're still homo sapiens are we not? Thing is you are trying to apply human cultural and biological qualities to a fictional alien species, who while having different tribes, are a completely different thing from we are.

    It's like comparing apples and oranges. Like you've got a variety of different apples and oranges, you can't compare. Also Rodriguez himself even goes onto say that these Predators are a different breed, different species. But hey, I guess Word of God doesn't count in your book, right?

    And the thing is you're also trying compare terrestrial biology to a fictional action species. And you whole heartedly advocate the anthropomorphization of the Predators through the Yautja culture. So I don't think that's a very good argument for you.

    It's far more reasonable to assume that they are the same species, just different ethnicities. There are not enough differences to reasonably think otherwise. All of the Predators (aside from Classic) look different from one another. But I don't see you trying to make any of them a cousin species. You even talk about them being differing tribes elsewhere in the forum.

    Different breed could be taken all sorts of ways.

    But it's all moot, isn't it? They're a fictional species. Just seems to me to be due to your opinion of the film and an effort to remove these Predators from the fold.

    My disliking of the film cast aside, I am going by what is presented to me in the movie, through Rodriguez's statements and what material has been published in the official material-- confirmed or questionable. I'm looking ALL sources here.

    Now if you want to discuss on how much I hate the film THAT's an unneeded discussion which I'm sure the both of us REALLY don't want to get into. Hell, I did not want to get into this discussion but here we are... Again.

    And again, it didn't make it into the film. It's all well and good and interesting discussing various intentions that were discussed and bandied about. But trying to use them to justify your opinion is pointless because they're not representative of the actual product. For example, one of your frequent complaints - They may have said Predators ignores Predator 2 - nothing in the film contradicts it. At all. It is just a spiritual sequel to the first.

    An animal is most dangerous when cornered... But how dangerous is said animal when the Hunter has weaponry which is perhaps equivalent to military grade weaponry, even by Predator standards? I mean those Super Predators did have upgraded weaponry according to Noland.

    Did we see anything significantly better? The Falcon, maybe. A Plasma Caster with a faster rate of fire - and worse accuracy. There's nothing to suggest that any of the equipment was better.

    Quote
    As for cornering an animal to make it's most dangerous.. same thing could be done on a hunt in the wilderness. Or in the Predator's case, off-world and on the prey's home turf.

    And I am glad that you get what I am saying but I disagree with completely with your view. I've already mentioned my reasons, and I don't feel like I need to re-state them again. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Evidently so.

    I still stand my opinion that PREDATORS was a terrible movie. I've seen it five times, tried to watch it a sixth. You can't say I didn't give the movie a chance when I gave it five viewings to let it grow on me.

    Doesn't help if you're not willing to be persuaded by it. I can watch AvPR as many times as I am willing but if I'm not open to its good qualities then it wont make one iota of a difference to my opinion. That's not giving it a chance when you're so deadset on your dislike. Same goes for these debates.

    Quote
    It's almost six in the morning. Can I go to sleep, Dad?
    (A playful joke)

    You can go to bed whenever you like, Junior.  :) P.S Love that you have to clarify that - internet, ain't it wonderful for conveying tone.  :-\
  22. RakaiThwei
    I'd disagree they're worth bringing up. I don't know for a fact but I imagine they're just written by NECA.

    Well, they are an official source. Not like they're fanon or anything. I just thought they'd be worth something bringing up, even if they are questionable.

    "Kind of like". Nolan is in no position to make a definitive statement about their genetics. It's just easier to say than "it's kinda like the difference between this race/ethnicity of humans/then that other race".

    I thought that the Wolf and Dog analogy served fine enough in the context of the film in what he was trying to get across. If anything, I thought he was right on the money. Evolution has a weird way of playing things out, the slightest change in an environment could cause an entire species to choose to either adapt or go extinct. Sometimes, evolution results in enough changes to where a genus could result in similar but different species.

    The African fella's at work also have different skin to me. Are they a different species to myself? No. It's ethnicity. Humans come in all shapes and sizes with all sorts of differences. The foot thing, granted but that's more than likely down to artistic license than any desire to make them some sort of sub-species.

    And I am a Hispanic with thick, straight hair and dark skin and brown eyes. Aside form the differences between myself, you and the friend from work you bring up, we're still homo sapiens are we not? Thing is you are trying to apply human cultural and biological qualities to a fictional alien species, who while having different tribes, are a completely different thing from we are.

    It's like comparing apples and oranges. Like you've got a variety of different apples and oranges, you can't compare. Also Rodriguez himself even goes onto say that these Predators are a different breed, different species. But hey, I guess Word of God doesn't count in your book, right?

    You just read into it too much in an effort to isolate them from the films because of your dislike of the film and a concept that didn't even make it into the film.

    My disliking of the film cast aside, I am going by what is presented to me in the movie, through Rodriguez's statements and what material has been published in the official material-- confirmed or questionable. I'm looking ALL sources here.

    Now if you want to discuss on how much I hate the film THAT's an unneeded discussion which I'm sure the both of us REALLY don't want to get into. Hell, I did not want to get into this discussion but here we are... Again.

    Depends on the context of the preserve. Our hunting preserves are controlled. Dropping a bunch of dangerous prey on a planet isn't controlled. And then there's the increased danger of desperate prey. Isn't there a saying about animals being most dangerous when they're cornered?

    An animal is most dangerous when cornered... But how dangerous is said animal when the Hunter has weaponry which is perhaps equivalent to military grade weaponry, even by Predator standards? I mean those Super Predators did have upgraded weaponry according to Noland.

    As for cornering an animal to make it's most dangerous.. same thing could be done on a hunt in the wilderness. Or in the Predator's case, off-world and on the prey's home turf.

    I get what you're saying - that it could make it less of a challenge but I disagree completely. I think it gives the potential of an even greater challenge, when these violent and dangerous people/creatures are fighting for their very existence on an Alien planet. Look at Royce for flips sake.

    And I am glad that you get what I am saying but I disagree with completely with your view. I've already mentioned my reasons, and I don't feel like I need to re-state them again. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I'll give you that. But I stand by the opinion that Predators was a well done film. I would have reduced the number of new Predators to one and removed the dialogue homages but otherwise, I think it's a great film that I like as much as Predator.

    I still stand my opinion that PREDATORS was a terrible movie. I've seen it five times, tried to watch it a sixth. You can't say I didn't give the movie a chance when I gave it five viewings to let it grow on me. I probably would've responded to the movie better had it been set on Earth but we would've seen the clan war between the two Predators happening in some other jungle. Or any other environment, like.. a desert, or caverns. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Same way as usual. Hish vs Yautja. Then someone mentions the BSPs as if they are as originally intended.

    It's almost six in the morning. Can I go to sleep, Dad?

    (A playful joke)
  23. Corporal Hicks
    I'm not arguing the validity of the NECA backstories, as I find them questionable but I figured it was something worth pointing out. Of course, I am unsure who writes these backstories be it NECA, or Fox's in-house writers themselves. Either way, while I wouldn't take them as something solid, I figured it was something worth pointing out.

    I'd disagree they're worth bringing up. I don't know for a fact but I imagine they're just written by NECA.

    Quote
    They are very different. You're presenting them as the same species when they are more or less an off-shoot. Noland said it best with his own analogy with the Dogs and Wolves comment:

    "Anyway, there's two different types of them out there. Hmm? Now, they're similar, but they're different. It's kind of like the difference between dogs and wolves."

    "Kind of like". Nolan is in no position to make a definitive statement about their genetics. It's just easier to say than "it's kinda like the difference between this race/ethnicity of humans/then that other race".

    Quote
    As for the differences, well they are glaringly obvious. The Super Predators are implied to be taller, stronger, faster and smarter.

    My boss at work is all of those compared to me. Is he a sub-species? Am I?

    This group may not be representative of the whole ethnicity.

    Quote
    That's not even touching the rest of the physical stuff. The cranial region seems to be exaggerated along with the mandibles. The skin is visible different on the face as well if Berserker is shown to be an example with indentations and rises happening in the skin. Folds here and there, all that sort of weird stuff going on. Also there is the foot configuration.. These guys have three large toes, where as the mainstream Predators have four or five toes.

    Going back to the Dogs and Wolf comment.. Are they the same thing? They're cousin species. One just happened to branch off the other as it's been domesticated, the other remained nearly unchanged for thousands of years. But are dogs and wolves the same thing? No, they're not but they are closely related. Dogs and wolves are the same genus but they're different species.

    Same applies to the Predators and Super Predators.


    The African fella's at work also have different skin to me. Are they a different species to myself? No. It's ethnicity. Humans come in all shapes and sizes with all sorts of differences. The foot thing, granted but that's more than likely down to artistic license than any desire to make them some sort of sub-species.

    You just read into it too much in an effort to isolate them from the films because of your dislike of the film and a concept that didn't even make it into the film.


    Quote
    I did not like the idea of the Preserve Planet. For me it takes away the idea of what the Hunt is supposed to be about. A Predator isolating himself in an alien world, putting himself in a challenging environment that he has to familiarize himself with, his prey having the home field advantage to heal and restock on whatever it needs.  The aspect of the chase, the aspect of fair game in a sporting hunt. And that's not bringing the "space samurai" honor concept into that.

    For me, THAT'S Predator. Something which the first two movies did spectacularly, and could still do.

    You remember that King of the Hill episode where Hank wants to take Bobby out to hunt but feels as if his son is too inept to do it, and then tries to make up for it by taking Bobby to a La Grunta resort where they have captured buck out in the open where the Hunters sit in posts and shoot them in the wide open? For me that's what the Perserve Planet provides.. A canned hunt.

    And many Hunters out there really don't like canned hunts. Completely takes the sport out of everything. In a controlled environment where the Super Predators reign, it's not about the thrill of the hunt anymore, it's about bagging a prey in the cheapest way possible.

    Depends on the context of the preserve. Our hunting preserves are controlled. Dropping a bunch of dangerous prey on a planet isn't controlled. And then there's the increased danger of desperate prey. Isn't there a saying about animals being most dangerous when they're cornered?

    I get what you're saying - that it could make it less of a challenge but I disagree completely. I think it gives the potential of an even greater challenge, when these violent and dangerous people/creatures are fighting for their very existence on an Alien planet. Look at Royce for flips sake.

    Quote
    More like open to the idea of, but it depends on the execution.

    I'll give you that. But I stand by the opinion that Predators was a well done film. I would have reduced the number of new Predators to one and removed the dialogue homages but otherwise, I think it's a great film that I like as much as Predator.

    Quote
    How in the hell did we even get talking about PREDATORS to begin with. I know that's a touchy subject since you and I don't agree on the film and honestly, I wasn't even intending to go there but here we are.

    Same way as usual. Hish vs Yautja. Then someone mentions the BSPs as if they are as originally intended.
  24. RakaiThwei
    The backs of figures are probably amongst the lowest tier of EU. I'd rate them as valid as the Kenner comics.

    I'm not arguing the validity of the NECA backstories, as I find them questionable but I figured it was something worth pointing out. Of course, I am unsure who writes these backstories be it NECA, or Fox's in-house writers themselves. Either way, while I wouldn't take them as something solid, I figured it was something worth pointing out.

    How are they "radically different"? Different colour. Present in various humans. Different forehead. Present in various humans. There's nothing to present these as a different race. Merely another ethnicity with minor physical differences and a different ideology.

    They are very different. You're presenting them as the same species when they are more or less an off-shoot. Noland said it best with his own analogy with the Dogs and Wolves comment:

    "Anyway, there's two different types of them out there. Hmm? Now, they're similar, but they're different. It's kind of like the difference between dogs and wolves."

    As for the differences, well they are glaringly obvious. The Super Predators are implied to be taller, stronger, faster and smarter. That's not even touching the rest of the physical stuff. The cranial region seems to be exaggerated along with the mandibles. The skin is visible different on the face as well if Berserker is shown to be an example with indentations and rises happening in the skin. Folds here and there, all that sort of weird stuff going on. Also there is the foot configuration.. These guys have three large toes, where as the mainstream Predators have four or five toes.

    Going back to the Dogs and Wolf comment.. Are they the same thing? They're cousin species. One just happened to branch off the other as it's been domesticated, the other remained nearly unchanged for thousands of years. But are dogs and wolves the same thing? No, they're not but they are closely related. Dogs and wolves are the same genus but they're different species.

    Same applies to the Predators and Super Predators.

    I love the idea of a preserve planet. I think it's a fantastic addition to the Predator mythology and it makes complete sense.

    I did not like the idea of the Preserve Planet. For me it takes away the idea of what the Hunt is supposed to be about. A Predator isolating himself in an alien world, putting himself in a challenging environment that he has to familiarize himself with, his prey having the home field advantage to heal and restock on whatever it needs.  The aspect of the chase, the aspect of fair game in a sporting hunt. And that's not bringing the "space samurai" honor concept into that.

    For me, THAT'S Predator. Something which the first two movies did spectacularly, and could still do.

    You remember that King of the Hill episode where Hank wants to take Bobby out to hunt but feels as if his son is too inept to do it, and then tries to make up for it by taking Bobby to a La Grunta resort where they have captured buck out in the open where the Hunters sit in posts and shoot them in the wide open? For me that's what the Perserve Planet provides.. A canned hunt.

    And many Hunters out there really don't like canned hunts. Completely takes the sport out of everything. In a controlled environment where the Super Predators reign, it's not about the thrill of the hunt anymore, it's about bagging a prey in the cheapest way possible.

    Wouldn't mind/Wanted.

    More like open to the idea of, but it depends on the execution.

    Like I said, it'd been a while so my memory might not be accurate. I've got no desire to really read them again. I disliked them. The film, I didn't.

    How in the hell did we even get talking about PREDATORS to begin with. I know that's a touchy subject since you and I don't agree on the film and honestly, I wasn't even intending to go there but here we are.

    Having that said... I agree with you on the scripts. I didn't like those either.
  25. Corporal Hicks
    Funny.. because other material asserts them as being Super Predators, and the same material seems to further drift them apart from the whole Yautja concept, more or less making the Super Predators considering themselves to be a whole other race. Scavenger is being listed as a Yautja-Super Predator hybrid. I'm not kidding.

    The backs of figures are probably amongst the lowest tier of EU. I'd rate them as valid as the Kenner comics.

    Quote
    As for the film itself, I did not like the execution. Also, I never said I wanted anything.. I said I wouldn't mind. Doesn't necessarily mean I have high hopes. But it all depends on the execution. For me, the Super Predator thing.. it was too far out there. The idea of the whole preserve planet, them being so radically different to an anatomical standpoint.. These guys might as well be an off-shoot race. Not ethnicity, not clan or tribe but an off-shoot race like how Romulan and Vulcans are.

    How are they "radically different"? Different colour. Present in various humans. Different forehead. Present in various humans. There's nothing to present these as a different race. Merely another ethnicity with minor physical differences and a different ideology. They like to bring their prey out of its comfort.

    I love the idea of a preserve planet. I think it's a fantastic addition to the Predator mythology and it makes complete sense.

    Quote
    I never said I wanted Cannibal Predators. I was making comparisons on how some real life indigenous tribes on Earth had happened to be cannibals. I was making an analogy on how some Predator clans could be different. Again, like making comparisons to Native American tribes. I never said explicitly that I wanted Cannibal Predators. Just making analogies is all.

    Wouldn't mind/Wanted.

    Quote
    Also, I don't remember the Super Predators being cannibals in any of the early scripts. Then again, I only just read those two scripts. The 1994 and 2009 script.

    Like I said, it'd been a while so my memory might not be accurate. I've got no desire to really read them again. I disliked them. The film, I didn't.
  26. RakaiThwei
    Seriously though. That's not even a valid complaint as the original concept is nowhere in the actual film. In fact, the film presents them exactly as what you just said you wanted. A different Predator clan with visibly different culture that conflicts with the "classic".

    Funny.. because other material asserts them as being Super Predators, and the same material seems to further drift them apart from the whole Yautja concept, more or less making the Super Predators considering themselves to be a whole other race. Scavenger is being listed as a Yautja-Super Predator hybrid. I'm not kidding.

    As for the film itself, I did not like the execution. Also, I never said I wanted anything.. I said I wouldn't mind. Doesn't necessarily mean I have high hopes. But it all depends on the execution. For me, the Super Predator thing.. it was too far out there. The idea of the whole preserve planet, them being so radically different to an anatomical standpoint.. These guys might as well be an off-shoot race. Not ethnicity, not clan or tribe but an off-shoot race like how Romulan and Vulcans are.

    But as I said, some material out there seems to assert that may be the case. I wouldn't mind it if the EU would write these Super Predators as a removed and off-shoot race with their own name designation. It doesn't have to be Yautja, nor Hish.

    Honestly, that would make that easier for me to swallow and accept these guys.

    And even then you mention wanting cannibal Predators.  Granted it's been sometime since I read that early draft but didn't the actual Super Predators do that?

    I never said I wanted Cannibal Predators. I was making comparisons on how some real life indigenous tribes on Earth had happened to be cannibals. I was making an analogy on how some Predator clans could be different. Again, like making comparisons to Native American tribes. I never said explicitly that I wanted Cannibal Predators. Just making analogies is all.

    Also, I don't remember the Super Predators being cannibals in any of the early scripts. Then again, I only just read those two scripts. The 1994 and 2009 script.
  27. Corporal Hicks
    http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2426913/scrubs-head-explode-o.gif




    Seriously though. That's not even a valid complaint as the original concept is nowhere in the actual film. In fact, the film presents them exactly as what you just said you wanted. A different Predator clan with visibly different culture that conflicts with the "classic".

    And even then you mention wanting cannibal Predators.  Granted it's been sometime since I read that early draft but didn't the actual Super Predators do that?

    Whoever did that exploding head. That's who we need for the SFX in the new Alien film.

    It's from an early Scrubs episode.
  28. RakaiThwei
    You saw that. Predators. And you complained.  :-\

    [Sighs]

    I didn't like the Preserve Planet and the whole Super Predator thing which was done for the Rule of Cool. You know the whole I-Pod and 8-Track comment? Yeah, they were done for Rule of Cool.

    I didn't mind the Killer clan, I didn't mind the Poacher clan in Extinction either. I've been a firm believer that none of the clans were uniform, and that they followed certain lineages and what have you. It's about execution more than anything else. I liked the Killer clan in Three World War and I liked the Poacher clan in Extinction. I know there were other clans but.. I can't put my finger on them unless those were the other two significant clans in the old EU.
  29. RakaiThwei
    Then you have a stale and stagnant element. Boring. If you're not interested in development then there's no point in even bothering with new releases. That's the whole point of the expanded universe - to expand.

    I just feel as if the Yautja aspect more or less has been viewed enough. I don't mind seeing something new but I don't want it to clash with something I feel has been established. For example, I don't want to see Predator Kings when in previous EU material (i.e. games and comics) has established that Predators have a Council of Ancients. I also don't want to know if Engineers also created the Predators, I mean isn't that enough they were made Galactic Overlords?

    If the Yautja aspect is to be expanded, I feel as if it has to keep the elements of the old but bringing in with things that don't clash with the old. For example, I wouldn't mind seeing different clans having different cultures. You know how some idigenous tribes out there have different cultures, like... one tribes being cannibals, others not so much, or how some tribes are representive of an element like say... oh.. an Earth Tribe or Fire Tribe? Case in point.. compare an Iroquois to the Apache.

    THAT I wouldn't mind seeing.
  30. Corporal Hicks
    Then you have a stale and stagnant element. Boring. If you're not interested in development then there's no point in even bothering with new releases. That's the whole point of the expanded universe - to expand.
  31. RakaiThwei
    I'd prefer he keep them neutral too but I'm sure if he needs to, he'll go to the Yautja. It's just too prolific.

    I hope he doesn't. Not because I don't like the Yautja mythos, but because I love it quite a lot. I am conservative about how all of that is handled. In my opinion, the Perry's and David Bischoff handled that aspect pretty well. I'm just wary if Lebbon will be adding or changing things which I feel won't agree with the Yautja aspect of things, especially if this is supposed to be part of a reboot of the EU.
  32. Corporal Hicks
    South China Sea is the best Predator novel. Hands down. Heads and shoulders above anything else out there. Turnabout was also great. I'd prefer he keep them neutral too but I'm sure if he needs to, he'll go to the Yautja. It's just too prolific.
  33. RakaiThwei
    Like I said - the first novel was poor. But Flesh and Blood took the aspect I liked - the thrill of the hunt, not the space samurai stuff and made the Predators brutal. Just how I liked it.

    I suppose it's a matter of preference. I prefer the Yautja mythology and that's what I'm sticking with.

    Of course there is the neutral material where the Predators are neither shown to be neither Yautja nor Hish. Like, Big Game, Turnabout and South China Sea. I wouldn't mind it if Lebbon avoided either and remained neutral and just referred to them as Predators.
  34. Corporal Hicks
    I may not have read the Hish mythos but I felt as if they were... out there to say the least. From what I have heard, I didn't like the changes which were made. Namely with the Hish being able to changes sexes involuntarily, the kill gland which caused them to go into a berserker rage, setting fire to newborn Hish to see who was worthy to live, Hish kiddies playing Mortal Kombat with real live humans who were under some mind control, Hish being conquerors and slavers.... It was ridiculous.

    Like I said - the first novel was poor. But Flesh and Blood took the aspect I liked - the thrill of the hunt, not the space samurai stuff and made the Predators brutal. Just how I liked it.
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